Money-makin' tin...and I ain’t talkin’ cans...

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azekologi

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O.K. TB gents, a handful of recent events and a few curious observations have sparked an idea :idea: that I thought I’d toss out there for discussion:

First off, a good friend/coworker of a long-time friend of mine just got through borrowing (renting actually) my boat for a four-day camping/fishing trip. Essentially, he wanted to rent my boat as our gentleman’s agreement was cheaper for him than renting a boat at the lake ($50/3 hours :shock:). Not to mention, he wouldn’t have to limit his fishing time(s) to the hours that the lake store was open for business (8A-5P). IMO, the greatest aspect of the deal was that his rental allowed me to get a much better, safer, problem-free trailer that I probably wouldn’t have been able afford for another season or so =D>. Additionally, he took excellent care of my boat/trailer (I explained the story behind getting my boat and the sentimental value it has), and brought it back safe, sound, and probably in a little cleaner condition than I sent it away in. He hopes to be able to rent it every year for his annual trip, possibly 2-3 times a year, schedule and finances permitting of course. I’m game as I envision a bimini top, new seats, and a few other upgrades being paid for with little to no financial hardship by me (subsidizing the cost of a hobby, any hobby, is always nice). :roll:

Second, the cash I had left after the trailer purchase has got me trolling the boat section of Craigslist (daily now) looking for a canoe with a flat, transom back (been wanting one of those for a while [-o<).

That’s when I stumbled upon something that really caught my interest :!:: there seem to be one or two guys locally who, semi-regularly, offer their personal tins up for rent (not to mention a slew of private or commercial PWC, pontoon, or runabout rentals…but only the few tins). With prices that range from $70/weekend to $50-75/day for an electric-only outfitted 12-14’ tin, ain’t nobody gonna retire tomorrow, but there’s definitely some money out there to be had. :mrgreen:

So I got to thinking, what does my boat cost me annually and what expenses should be considered in a rental? I came up with this: $20 for registration, $5 more if you count my city-run, man-made lake registration and a $75 marine battery every other year or so. You’d also want to factor in deterioration of the TM, trailer tires, bearings, grease, etc., but those costs would be minimal, and most likely spread out over time (blowouts, road hazards, and chewed-up run-aground props aside). I’d guess that it’s probably in the neighborhood of $150-$200/year +/- $50.

Now, I wouldn’t want to rent out my baby of a tin for some yahoos to beat the snot out of [-X, but I do happen to have a few leads on extended family members who are looking for larger crafts and would let their 12-14’ boats go for a steal, especially to such a boat enthusiast as myself :wink:. Not to mention the occasional low-priced Craigslist gem or fixer-upper that we all seem to stumble upon every once-in-a-blue moon (where is my transom-back canoe! :evil:).

Anyway, our season here is about 6 months long (April-September) if you consider both local and mountain lakes. Six months is roughly 26 weekends; if you could rent a boat for $70 a weekend, for HALF (13) of those weekends, that’s almost $1k/year. By no means would it be enough to quit my day job, nor lead me to early retirement, but seems like something that might be able to turn a profit, or at least subsidize some of my annual boating/fishing expenses.

So…the questions at hand:

What do you guys think of my crazy tin-rental idea?

Have you ever rented your boat to a “friend-of-a-friend”? How about a stranger?

Ever run across private (not commercial) rentals on Craigslist, the newspaper, wherever? How much do they go for in your
area?

What problems might you foresee that I haven’t mentioned yet?


I have come up with a few other pitfalls/concerns, but I’ll toss them out there as the conversation progresses.


Generally speaking, I’m still in the ‘spitballing’ stages trying to figure out if this is a good idea, worth my time, etc. I figured my “best boat buddies” here on TB could offer some wisdom, advice, or general BS (ahab? #-o).

Thanks in advance gents.

(BTW, I always post questions with the gentleman of the sight in mind, do we have any active lady members? If so, I don't mean to exclude you ladies at all...just didn't know you were lurking 8))
 
Ditto on the liability, $50 for three hours is probably about right... Talk to a lawyer and you insurer for facts, then talk to your state DNR guys, then the Govt tax guys and business liscenses too.

Every year some guys advertises on CL to rent some jetskis or a boat for his vacation up at Deep Creek Lake, seems the ads keep repeating until labor day so I doubt he ever rents one.

While I think it's a great idea, I don't see it being a viable one.
Jamie
 
If you can get past the liability issue, I think it is a great idea. I would rent one if it was available near some of the lakes I fish.

Also, you might be able to meet them at the body of water where you can unload and load the boat(yourself) at the end of day sort of minimizing your liability.

Endless ideas.................
 
THEY WAY I TAKE THIS IS YOUR NOT JUST GOING TO RENT TO ANY BOZO OFF THE STREET, IN THAT RETROSPECT I WOULD DO IT, BUT IF YOU ARE PLANNING TO RENT TO STRANGERS THEN I DONT KNOW I WOULD 1 THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT PEOPLE AS A WHOLE ARE STUPID, AND I HAVE FOUND THAT MOST PEOPLE REALY DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT SOMEONE ELSES STUFF, MY SOON TO BE WIFE HER SISTER/SISTERS HUSBAND ALL GO TO A CABIN THAT IS OWNED BY MY SOON TO BE SISTER IN LAW'S COMPANY SHE WORKS FOR, REALY NICE HAS A POND AND A NICE LAKE, BUT THERE ARE 2 10' LOWE FLAT BOTTOMS THERE FOR PEOPLE TO USE WHEN THEY ARE THERE, EVERYTIME WE GO DOWN I HAVE TO FIX SOMETHING ON THEM, NOT THAT I HAVE TO IM JUST A TINKERER, AND ITS HOW I ROLL :), BUT THESE PEOPLE THAT GO DOWN THERE ARE GONNA RUIN IT FOR EVERYONE. I GUESS WHAT IM GETTING AT IS I WOULD BE CAREFUL AND HAVE THEM SIGN A WAIVER OR SOMETHING STATING YOU ARENT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY LOSS OF TACKLE,PERSONAL PROPERTY, AND OR LIFE... JUST MY OPINION :)
 
I'd be very surprised if your insurance would cover any accident / loss while it's rented, and they may cancel your coverage altogether if they discover that the boat is being used commercially.
 
Your talking about the same issues teh boat rental places face. There is already a whole industry dedicated to boat rentals, mimic it. As you said, fishing trips don't always align with an 8-5 day. Your compitative advantage is allowing your clients to set the hours they rent the boat. 12 hours is 12 hours, regardless what time the clock starts. 3 days is 3 days regardless when they pick up the boat.

Your first call should be with your attorney.

Then check out this site and find a local chapter.
https://www.score.org/
Score is FREE! I belong to a local chapter, they will teach you how to start and run your own small business.
 
Ok gents, the discussion continues….

hossthehermit said:
Issue #1- Liability. Somebody rents your boat, injures or kills themself or somebody else??????

Agreed. This thought was one of the first to cross my mind (next to someone running off w/ my boat trailer :shock: …but I’ll get to that a little further down). The first CL ad that I saw didn’t seem to be too thought out…simply “rent my tin for ‘x’ dollars/day”. The second seemed a little more formal (although I’m not sure as I didn’t contact either one). The second gentleman mentioned a “short application”, “security deposit”, and “needing a copy of ID for the rental” (I’m guessing a DL or something along those lines). I think having something more formal, especially asking for ID, credit card deposit, etc. would minimize the chance of someone trying to run off with my boat/trailer (that's the downside to tins....easily stolen, hidden, etc.).

The first step would be to have a written rental agreement and indemnify/waver the snot out of everything (lose an arm, leg, die...not my problem). It doesn’t entirely protect you from a lawsuit, but it would offer a thin veil of protection and be something that would be admissible/defendable in a court of law.

Speaking of the legal system…I’ve had a few civil brushes with the law (for example, I’m currently the leader in a neighborhood/community class action lawsuit to have a dog that severely mauled our regular mail carrier a) declared vicious, b) forcibly removed from our neighborhood, c) destroyed). What I’m getting at here is that the legal system is not what most people believe it is….it’s not about right and wrong or about black and white…it’s about who can hire a better attorney and strike a better deal (sad, but true....not to start a separate debate, but look at OJ, Casey Anthony, etc.). That said, nothing is going to eliminate one’s liability completely, rather it’s about positioning one’s self, one’s business, on ‘strategic higher ground’.

Ranchero50 said:
Ditto on the liability, $50 for three hours is probably about right... Talk to a lawyer and you insurer for facts, then talk to your state DNR guys, then the Govt tax guys and business liscenses too.

Every year some guys advertises on CL to rent some jetskis or a boat for his vacation up at Deep Creek Lake, seems the ads keep repeating until labor day so I doubt he ever rents one.
While I think it's a great idea, I don't see it being a viable one.

Lawyer - Just doing the preliminary research now, but speaking with the family attorney is on the agenda (gonna need someone to write a rental agreement) once I get this initial brainstorming out of the way.

We get a lot of PWC rental guys around here (both private and commercial) as we have a 5-6 good size lakes in the metro Phoenix area. The PWC or even gas-powered boat thing kinda scares me a little as it seems a lot more likely that someone get injured on one of those things vs. a 12-14’ tin with a 55lb TM. But I’ve seen a lot of idiots **** near kill themselves with a blunt spoon.

Insurer - I’ll get to that a little further down the page.

State DNR guys – what’s “DNR”? :?: I know the acronym as “Do Not Resuscitate”. Are you referring to “Game & Fish” (in AZ, they’re who’s in charge of our boat, hunting, fishing licensure etc.).

Viability – I hear ya, and that’s why I’m proceeding cautiously, asking questions, and taking the time to think about this venture…not jumping in head first. This wouldn't be my first business.

Jim said:
If you can get past the liability issue, I think it is a great idea. I would rent one if it was available near some of the lakes I fish.

Also, you might be able to meet them at the body of water where you can unload and load the boat(yourself) at the end of day sort of minimizing your liability.
Endless ideas.................

Jim, thanks for the encouragement! If the renter was to want a local lake (say one of the 5-6 that are within 30-50mi. of the metro area); I would totally entertain the idea of towing/launching/retrieving for them…for a fee. Unfortunately, I think my best market would be some of the longer runs (100+ miles) into the mountain lakes and such…it would be cost prohibitive both for the renter and I to tow/drop for them.

Endless ideas.............keep 'em coming!

BOB350RX said:
THEY WAY I TAKE THIS IS YOUR NOT JUST GOING TO RENT TO ANY BOZO OFF THE STREET, IN THAT RETROSPECT I WOULD DO IT, BUT IF YOU ARE PLANNING TO RENT TO STRANGERS THEN I DONT KNOW I WOULD 1 THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT PEOPLE AS A WHOLE ARE STUPID, AND I HAVE FOUND THAT MOST PEOPLE REALY DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT SOMEONE ELSES STUFF, MY SOON TO BE WIFE HER SISTER/SISTERS HUSBAND ALL GO TO A CABIN THAT IS OWNED BY MY SOON TO BE SISTER IN LAW'S COMPANY SHE WORKS FOR, REALY NICE HAS A POND AND A NICE LAKE, BUT THERE ARE 2 10' LOWE FLAT BOTTOMS THERE FOR PEOPLE TO USE WHEN THEY ARE THERE, EVERYTIME WE GO DOWN I HAVE TO FIX SOMETHING ON THEM, NOT THAT I HAVE TO IM JUST A TINKERER, AND ITS HOW I ROLL :), BUT THESE PEOPLE THAT GO DOWN THERE ARE GONNA RUIN IT FOR EVERYONE. I GUESS WHAT IM GETTING AT IS I WOULD BE CAREFUL AND HAVE THEM SIGN A WAIVER OR SOMETHING STATING YOU ARENT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY LOSS OF TACKLE,PERSONAL PROPERTY, AND OR LIFE... JUST MY OPINION :)

:shock: ARRRGGHHH CAPLOCK! :wink:

Any bozo...no…I’d be fairly selective about the bozos I chose, :roll: but it’s hard to quickly identify the extent of one’s bozofication. :mrgreen: (take ahab for example :wink:) Hopefully a rental agreement, security deposit (I have access to a credit card POS machine), and required ID would eliminate the majority of bozos. 8)

Not treating my stuff as I would…completely understandable…see my response to BaitCaster below.

BaitCaster said:
Renting out my boat would be like renting out one of my children! Couldn't do it.

Nor could I…that’s why if I was to do something along these lines (read: NOT just renting/loaning to my good buddy’s friend) I would NEVER do it with my personal tin. [-X I’d do with within another boat that doesn’t have the same sentimental value as my boat (I’ll make sure to let you know when I’m finished putting together my boat’s story…it’s been hard to write :cry: ).

RivRunR said:
I'd be very surprised if your insurance would cover any accident / loss while it's rented, and they may cancel your coverage altogether if they discover that the boat is being used commercially.

Insurance - According to my insurance company, for my personal use that is, the boat and trailer are covered by auto insurance while being towed or homeowners while sitting on the side of the house. I carry no separate insurance for the boat….so I’m pretty sure I’m SOL while on the water.

The Answer: business insurance (had it before for another business, would totally get it again need be). I’m positive that I’d need to carry something for accident/injury anyway…the question is how much is it gonna cost me? :shock:

Hanr3 said:
Your talking about the same issues teh boat rental places face. There is already a whole industry dedicated to boat rentals, mimic it. As you said, fishing trips don't always align with an 8-5 day. Your compitative advantage is allowing your clients to set the hours they rent the boat. 12 hours is 12 hours, regardless what time the clock starts. 3 days is 3 days regardless when they pick up the boat.

Your first call should be with your attorney.

Then check out this site and find a local chapter.

https://www.score.org/

Score is FREE! I belong to a local chapter, they will teach you how to start and run your own small business.

Well said, I figure that the niche market is where money is to be made. [-o< By having a small operation, that can cater to a client’s time needs, above and beyond the lakeside boat store, is where I stand a chance to make some coin. On top of that, most rental places (in-town, or lakeside/marina stores) seem to gouge pretty hard. :evil:

Like I said, I’m not going to retire on it, but it may subsidize my hobby to a considerable extent.

Thanks for the score.org tip, I’ll check them out. =D>
 
Second, the cash I had left after the trailer purchase has got me trolling the boat section of Craigslist (daily now) looking for a canoe with a flat, transom back (been wanting one of those for a while ).



Too bad you're in the desert. (not mine btw)

https://ottumwa.craigslist.org/boa/2504556508.html
 
parkerdog said:
Too bad you're in the desert. (not mine btw)

https://ottumwa.craigslist.org/boa/2504556508.html

Thanks for rubbin' it in P-dog. :wink:

Ya, it's hard to find a good selection of canoes 'round these parts. 85% of what's on CL locally are polyvinyl or plastic crafts (not interested, I'm a tin man 8)). The are a few all-metal canoe's, but they're few and far between, flat back ones are a rarity and seem to go pretty fast. :(
 
OK, now that we gotten through round one, and you seem to have a clue. No offense, just some people go off have baked.

You will need a business plan, especially if you want financial help. Your lawyer and insurance carrier may need to see it as well.
Not familiar with AZ. small business laws, however you may need to register your business with your state, and you will need a Federal Employer Identification number FEIN. SCORE can help you with both. I HIGHLY recommend you register your business as a S-Corp, and create a seperate bank account. By keeping the business finances seperate from teh family account, and being a Chapter S-Corp you severely limit your personal liability. IF the company does get sued, your personal finances will be protected. If you use your personal bank account, you break teh veil of the Corporation and open your personal financial up to the suit.


Have you decided on a name?
I used ?Ho
 
Hanr3 said:
OK, now that we gotten through round one, and you seem to have a clue. No offense, just some people go off have baked.

You will need a business plan, especially if you want financial help. Your lawyer and insurance carrier may need to see it as well.
Not familiar with AZ. small business laws, however you may need to register your business with your state, and you will need a Federal Employer Identification number FEIN. SCORE can help you with both. I HIGHLY recommend you register your business as a S-Corp, and create a seperate bank account. By keeping the business finances seperate from teh family account, and being a Chapter S-Corp you severely limit your personal liability. IF the company does get sued, your personal finances will be protected. If you use your personal bank account, you break teh veil of the Corporation and open your personal financial up to the suit.


Have you decided on a name?
I used ?Ho

First off, I appreciate the "having a clue and not being half-baked" complement. I hear ya, some people have no clue what they're getting into and rather than doing the hard work up front, jump in feet first and get ___? :shock: ?____. Well, you know. :wink:

Second, I don't think we're through round 1 yet....still testing the waters, mulling this whole thing over, getting opinions from family, friends, and most importantly....by TB buddies as they KNOW boats/the boating industry better than friends, family, etc.

No financial help needed. If I can play my cards right, I can probably get everything I need to start such a business on the cheap...minus insurance of course, which is entirely an unknown at this point. I'm not saying I don't need a business plan, definitely not in the traditional sense anyway, but I've started more elaborate business on post-it notes.

Corporations...wow...what a can of worms. :? Well, I agree with you that an S-Corp has more advantages than a C-Corp, LLC, Professional Corp, or a Partnership. But what we're overlooking here is that this business really isn't intended to make a ton of money...truthfully, I'm not sure if it's worth the added expense/hassle for a veil of protection that can easily be deconstructed by a good lawyer.

Now, before you think that I AM half-baked...hear me out on liability for a second.

A corporation, if handled properly, does offer some protection, but the second that any 'business monies' get intermingled with 'personal monies' (EVER, if it even happens ONCE, for pennies) your boat of a corporation springs a leak (boat pun dually intended :wink: ) and we all know what a leak can do to a boat. :shock: In short, if you screw it up, that veil of protection is gone...forever...and you become liable again. So, keeping finances and accounting separate (separate bank accounts, business money only used for 'business purposes' :wink::wink:, etc.) is of paramount importance. As is making sure that you do host your annual meeting, do take minutes, and do submit those minutes to the appropriate entity (state, federal, etc. corporation commission). If you don't, guess what...veil gone...you're not running a business, you're flying by the seat of your pants...the bureaucrats don't like that and the lawyers eat it up if you end up at trial.

Anyway, let's take this for example: I have a mini pseudo-business now (environmental consulting industry)...no corporation is set up, business monies are completely separate from personal finances, etc. When I began this particular venture, my intention was to set up an S-Corp, but after talking with a few accountants, business attorneys, tax attorneys, and a few other specialists...the advice was unanimous: setting up a corporation was a waste of time/money and not worth the hassle given the annual revenue of this business (lets conservatively say under $10K/yr). Now, part of that decision was based on the fact that I'm quite fortified when it comes to personal assets (everything I own that's worth anything at all is neatly tucked away in a trust...when it comes to liability and the law...no, no....I don't own squat...it's all NOT mine...I'm just a pauper...it all belongs to the trust :wink:). There is some liability in my consulting business; I do advise people to do things that cost tens of thousands of dollars, and I often transport environmental samples which (if you figure the costs of sampling) are easily worth $30-50K/job/client...but that's what business insurance is for. 8) Let's bring this full-circle though...the above advice was for a business that makes under $10K a year, NOW I'm spinning a boat-rental thing that's probably going do bring in less that $2K/year unless I start building an armada...which at $2K/year isn't going to be for a while.

When we get down to brass tacks what really matters here is liability. Sending some know-nothing yahoo out on a boat can easily be a recipe for disaster, even if on nothing more than a 50-acre lake (people can drown in just a few inches of water, right?). Hence, the ballgame changes when we change from giving educated advice (consulting) to sending someone out on the water (this boat rental thing), so I'll have to look into that aspect of the business a little more...we'll see how it goes. Tax liability can be an issue too, but that's what good accountants are for...my consulting business...makes almost nothing after operating expenses (all good small business do). Is what's being made being reported, of course - that's the law of the land, after expenses of course. :roll: Again, every move I made with that entity was carefully thought out and discussed with an accountant, laywer, etc.

As far as a name goes...nothing yet, that's the fun part...I'm still doing the hard work part to see if this is even worth getting off the ground.

What do you do with "?Ho"? What type of a business is it? Heck, what does it stand for? You've got me curious now... :wink:
 
Ranchero50 said:
Talk to a lawyer and you insurer for facts, then talk to your state DNR guys, then the Govt tax guys and business liscenses too.

azekologi said:
State DNR guys – what’s “DNR”? :?: I know the acronym as “Do Not Resuscitate”. Are you referring to “Game & Fish” (in AZ, they’re who’s in charge of our boat, hunting, fishing licensure etc.).

#-o :idea: Ahh....DNR = Department of Natural Resources. Got it. :lol: In AZ we don't have a "DNR", all that stuff is handled by Arizona Game and Fish Department; https://www.azgfd.gov/.
 
Around my way, there is a guy that rents canoes and Kayaks. The only difference is you need to meet him at this certain point on the river. I wonder how he handles insurance and Liability?
 
I too started a small business, and did the S-Corp. Cost nothing with the Feds. REgardless of business structure in Illinois, Illinois will get thier money. S-Corp was free to start, and yes I do have to send off a copy of my annual report. I have one customer @5K per year, and not really interested in more, right now Im considering dropping that business, and moving onto something closer to my passion. However that first business taught me a lot, and I made a bunch of mistakes. Hopefully I wont repeat them the next time.

I started to type ISO Auditing Company, but my fat fingers hit a bunch of keys on accident and posted the reply. Didn't have time to correct it, bed time and it was my lucky day. wohoo. :mrgreen: Priorities. :mrgreen:
https://myisoexpert.com/
First attempt at a website.

Your thread caught my eye, in that business revolves around tins. Not what I was thinking, however its not a bad idea either. We are getting a Bass Pro shop in town, opens in September. We also have several events that are major draws every year, and have a great reputation within the state for hunting and fishing. I do like the idea of boat rentals, and can see the draw in my neck of the woods. Plus I have another twist to tin boats that I am researching at the moment.

As for the lawyer and accountant. I think I have that covered. Oldest son took teh BAR exam earlier this week (hence my trip to Chicago), and his wife is taking her CPA exams, she is specializing in taxes.
 

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