my take on foam or no foam

skinnywaters · Apr 17, 2012

First off, I am FOR having foam in my boat. My boat is a lowe husky 1860 that I use only in saltwater. I have been having some problems with corrosion, well after doing some research I found that I have made some bonehead mistakes as far as wiring and battery placement. I have already fixed those problems. I also began thinking about the large foam boxes in the rear of my boat. I am sure they have water in them, but what if they are holding saltwater, plus I know they are not totally sealed so water can enter them from underneath. So I took the dive and cut rectangular holes in them. I started with the sides so I could attach the hindges before cutting the rest. I then stuck a long screw driver in the foam and it came out wet. Now, I know the factory foam holds water, I dont have a problem with the weight, that I know of. The whole reason for this is to stop corrosion, as in if they are holding saltwater. As soon as I began cutting the foam out, I relized that the foam may be holding more water then I thought. To be honest, by the time I get done, I am sure that I will be removing about 50 to 75lbs of foam from each side. The boxes are pretty large and I know that seems like a lot of weight but each large peice is full of water. When I finally got down to the bottom, I found that it was corroding just as I thought. Not all over the place, but pretty much anywhere outside air could get in. The further back in the boxes I went, the more water I found. The corrison seemed to be located more towards the front of the boxes. I attached some pictures, hope they download right because they really tell the story. In the end I will be glad that I did it. I worked hard to get this boat and it was slowly rotting away, luckly I can stop this and repair the minor stuff now. By the way, when I said I was having problems with corrison I meant the last time I had it out, I found a pin hole leak that was caused by corrison. My boat is always washed down and stays under a car port. All my corrison problems were in the rear of the boat. I could see corrosion pits starting under the paint. The hole was one of those pits that finally made it all the way through the hull. I do have a plan of action to repair the hole and the other pit marks. I just wanted to make sure I found the problem first.

jigngrub · Apr 17, 2012

What is your plan of action if your hull is breached or your boat is swamped while you're out on the water? Swim and let the boat sink?

Your foam is wet because you've neglected your boat. Don't blame the corrosion on the foam or the water, blame it on the neglect.

bigwave · Apr 17, 2012

Well I think your doing the right thing. I had a similar problem with my boat. I believe that a saltwater is your culprit, and the foam too. It is better to stop that corrosion and treat the area to prevent future corrosion. The foam should not be waterlogged. There are many alternatives to replace that foam displacement in other areas of the boat. If the corrosion continues your problems will only get worse foam or no foam. By the way you cant help the fact that the foam is like a sponge, and it was never designed to absorb water, that in my eyes is problematic. Just my two cents.

Kevin

PSG-1 · Apr 17, 2012

I'll bet that juicy foam was some good-smelling stuff, wasn't it? :shock:

That said, if you decide to remove all that foam, if you're not putting something else in those spaces, you really should consider putting some foam back in there. You could either use billets of the blue styrofoam like they originally used on floating docks, or you can buy the 2-part foam. Into your space, place a sheet of foam board, then place heavy duty plastic bags into that space, then pour the foam into the bags. This will help prevent some of the waterlogging, by keeping the foam out of the gutters, and off the floor. The foam board sitting on the floor will allow water and debris to run through, instead of sitting in there, causing corrosion and stinking.

The problem with most factory-installed foam, is that the foam often oozes into the gutters, and under the ribs, which interferes with proper drainage and airflow, this is the primary reason for the foam being waterlogged in a lot of boats....doesn't have as much to do with neglect as it has to do with a design flaw.

So, if you use the foam board trick, along with placing the foam in bags, or using billets of foam, you eliminate that problem.

jigngrub · Apr 17, 2012

PSG-1 said:
So, if you use the foam board trick, along with placing the foam in bags, or using billets of foam, you eliminate that problem.

Not if you don't keep your boat dry, just plain ol' freshwater can become corrosive to aluminum if left to set in between 2 surfaces such as wood, plastic, closed cell foam... anything.

Keeping the inside of your boat dry and covered is the best way to prevent corrosion.

PSG-1 · Apr 17, 2012

jigngrub said:
PSG-1 said:

So, if you use the foam board trick, along with placing the foam in bags, or using billets of foam, you eliminate that problem.

Click to expand...

Not if you don't keep your boat dry, just plain ol' freshwater can become corrosive to aluminum if left to set in between 2 surfaces such as wood, plastic, closed cell foam... anything.

Keeping the inside of your boat dry and covered is the best way to prevent corrosion.

For those that haul their boats in and out of the water every time, that works fine, as you can pull the plugs, open up hatches, and let everything dry out.

Any time I haul my boats out of the water, that's what I do, rinse the inside from bow to stern, then leave everything open on a warm sunny day, so it can drain and air out.

But for those of us who keep a boat in the water for 300+ days a year, it's kinda hard to keep a boat covered and dry. It's constantly in the water, and always exposed to the elements.

With that said, if you have water sitting in the bilge of a boat, which way is it going to drain and dry out faster? If the gutters are jammed full of waterlogged foam, or if they're clear, so all that water and debris can drain into the gutters and run to the stern, where it can be pumped overboard?

Yeah, if you leave 2 or 3 inches of water in the boat all the time, then, the foam board isn;t going to help much. But if you have a good bilge pump, and you keep a vigilant watch on your boat, not allowing water to sit in the bilge, keeping it pumped out, the foam board will help it drain better.

skinnywaters · Apr 17, 2012

This was to just inform people that factory foam can cause more problems than just weight. My boat is flushed each time I use and then is kept in a covered driveway. The problem is the foam and the design. There is no place for the water to drain out of the foam. The boxes are not totally sealed, so water can enter them whenever. In the end I will add some type of foam but it will be removable so the boxes can be.flushed properly. I will then add pumps to.both.boxes so the.water can be.pumped out. Sorry I am typing on my phone.

PSG-1 · Apr 17, 2012

skinnywaters said:
This was to just inform people that factory foam can cause more problems than just weight. My boat is flushed each time I use and then is kept in a covered driveway. The problem is the foam and the design. There is no place for the water to drain out of the foam. The boxes are not totally sealed, so water can enter them whenever. In the end I will add some type of foam but it will be removable so the boxes can be.flushed properly. I will then add pumps to.both.boxes so the.water can be.pumped out. Sorry I am typing on my phone.

My suggestion about placing the foam board in there, after removing all the waterlogged foam that's jammed in the gutters, will help with the drainage problem. Again, factory foam often clogs the gutters, which prevents proper drainage.

bassboy1 · Apr 17, 2012

jigngrub said:
Don't blame the corrosion on the foam or the water, blame it on the neglect.

Yep, someone (the designers/factory), neglected to install the foam in the proper manner.

I'm not sure why you are adamant on taking a shortcut in the installation, only to make up for it with continual effort later on. There is nothing wrong with this, if it is known up front, and understood. Such shortcuts are often fine, as the issues may or may not be a big issue on that individual case, such as a freshwater trailer maiden that gets used once a week in the summer, and kept in a garage.

But, you keep making a point of telling people not to take the necessary precautions in installing the foam in the least invasive manner, but instead that the only method is sponge drying and dry storing the boat, which is not possible for many. May work for the trailer maiden pleasure boat, but is not going to happen in a boat that stays in the water 300 days a year, or a workboat, which may get pulled out for only 2 weeks out of the year, if that.

Instead of claiming that if you don't blow dry the boat, it is going to sink, it would be better to voice your suggestion in a less negative manner, while still pointing out the limitations of said suggestion, "pouring flotation foam against the aluminum hull, while not a perfect solution, can be a good way to save some money in the initial build up, provided the boat is going to be trailered, and kept clean and dry."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, as this discussion is relevant, and does show, photographically, the issues that can arise with improper installation. If you are going to use flotation foam, the best way to do so is to encapsulate it in plastic, and use plastic (Starboard, etc) furring strips to give airspace all the way around the foam. I'm not real crazy about the foam board idea, as it still entails foam and aluminum touching directly, but in principle, it does get around much of the problem, by leaving the strakes clear for drainage.

Personally, if I had enough pride in my boat to keep it clean, dry, and indoors, I would certainly want the foam, and anything else, installed in the best manner possible, as it would provide the greatest possible corrosion resistance - take a well draining design, and keep it clean, dry, and indoors, and you have an extra safeguard before a problem could occur.

As for the original poster, I'd say some Zep-a-lume and scotchbrite are in your future, and I don't envy that job. :shock:

Dawson

bigwave · Apr 17, 2012

bassboy1 said:
jigngrub said:

Don't blame the corrosion on the foam or the water, blame it on the neglect.

Click to expand...

Yep, someone (the designers/factory), neglected to install the foam in the proper manner.

I'm not sure why you are adamant on taking a shortcut in the installation, only to make up for it with continual effort later on. There is nothing wrong with this, if it is known up front, and understood. Such shortcuts are often fine, as the issues may or may not be a big issue on that individual case, such as a freshwater trailer maiden that gets used once a week in the summer, and kept in a garage.

But, you keep making a point of telling people not to take the necessary precautions in installing the foam in the least invasive manner, but instead that the only method is sponge drying and dry storing the boat, which is not possible for many. May work for the trailer maiden pleasure boat, but is not going to happen in a boat that stays in the water 300 days a year, or a workboat, which may get pulled out for only 2 weeks out of the year, if that.

Instead of claiming that if you don't blow dry the boat, it is going to sink, it would be better to voice your suggestion in a less negative manner, while still pointing out the limitations of said suggestion, "pouring flotation foam against the aluminum hull, while not a perfect solution, can be a good way to save some money in the initial build up, provided the boat is going to be trailered, and kept clean and dry."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, as this discussion is relevant, and does show, photographically, the issues that can arise with improper installation. If you are going to use flotation foam, the best way to do so is to encapsulate it in plastic, and use plastic (Starboard, etc) furring strips to give airspace all the way around the foam. I'm not real crazy about the foam board idea, as it still entails foam and aluminum touching directly, but in principle, it does get around much of the problem, by leaving the strakes clear for drainage.

Personally, if I had enough pride in my boat to keep it clean, dry, and indoors, I would certainly want the foam, and anything else, installed in the best manner possible, as it would provide the greatest possible corrosion resistance - take a well draining design, and keep it clean, dry, and indoors, and you have an extra safeguard before a problem could occur.

As for the original poster, I'd say some Zep-a-lume and scotchbrite are in your future, and I don't envy that job. :shock:

Dawson

+2 I did not install the factory foam on my boat. I had the same problem and I corrected the problem to the best of my abilities. I will use my boat, the only reason it is in my garage is because its being modified the way I see fit.....not perfect but I assure you it will have more blood and dog hair on it than a nice pretty appearance. There are hundreds of pics on this website that show the same kind of damage. Boat builders do not always engineer their products the way the should be, it all comes down to cutting corners in my opinion. Hell some of the boats on this site are 40+ years old, technology sure has changed since then. Just do a little research and make the boat the way you want it....Take each piece of advise with a grain of salt and learn from your mistakes.....thats what this site is all about.

jigngrub · Apr 17, 2012

bassboy1 said:
jigngrub said:

Don't blame the corrosion on the foam or the water, blame it on the neglect.

Click to expand...

Yep, someone (the designers/factory), neglected to install the foam in the proper manner.

I'm not sure why you are adamant on taking a shortcut in the installation, only to make up for it with continual effort later on. There is nothing wrong with this, if it is known up front, and understood. Such shortcuts are often fine, as the issues may or may not be a big issue on that individual case, such as a freshwater trailer maiden that gets used once a week in the summer, and kept in a garage.

But, you keep making a point of telling people not to take the necessary precautions in installing the foam in the least invasive manner, but instead that the only method is sponge drying and dry storing the boat, which is not possible for many. May work for the trailer maiden pleasure boat, but is not going to happen in a boat that stays in the water 300 days a year, or a workboat, which may get pulled out for only 2 weeks out of the year, if that.

Instead of claiming that if you don't blow dry the boat, it is going to sink, it would be better to voice your suggestion in a less negative manner, while still pointing out the limitations of said suggestion, "pouring flotation foam against the aluminum hull, while not a perfect solution, can be a good way to save some money in the initial build up, provided the boat is going to be trailered, and kept clean and dry."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, as this discussion is relevant, and does show, photographically, the issues that can arise with improper installation. If you are going to use flotation foam, the best way to do so is to encapsulate it in plastic, and use plastic (Starboard, etc) furring strips to give airspace all the way around the foam. I'm not real crazy about the foam board idea, as it still entails foam and aluminum touching directly, but in principle, it does get around much of the problem, by leaving the strakes clear for drainage.

Personally, if I had enough pride in my boat to keep it clean, dry, and indoors, I would certainly want the foam, and anything else, installed in the best manner possible, as it would provide the greatest possible corrosion resistance - take a well draining design, and keep it clean, dry, and indoors, and you have an extra safeguard before a problem could occur.

As for the original poster, I'd say some Zep-a-lume and scotchbrite are in your future, and I don't envy that job. :shock:

Dawson

Hmmmm, I must be doing something wrong. I have a 15 year old boat with factory foam in it that's bone dry... how did that happen???

OH! I remember now!!! I keep my boat in good repair, I drain my bilge after every trip, I store my boat covered with the drain plug out, and when I clean it I do it on a sunny day and let it dry completely before covering it. My boat isn't garage kept, but it is kept covered outside and protected from the elements. Anyone that owns a boat can do this. If the can't, they either don't deserve to own a boat... or they deserve to have to dig out their nasty waterlogged foam and replace it.

Don't give me that "it's not possible" stuff, it it possible. I know some people like the convenience of leaving their boat on the water and tied to the dock, but you can pay and pay dearly for that convenience. Leaving a boat uncovered and exposed to the elements will are it rapidly... and the owner has has themselves to blame for this, hence the neglect in my above post. I know no one wats to take the blame for their own mistakes... so let's blame it on the manufacturer, yeah! That's it! The manufacturer!!!

skinnywaters · Apr 17, 2012

......hmmmm. Obviously, some of us completely don't understand what I am talking about. I'm not going to repeatedly explain that no matter how much you drain, dry or wipe you are not going to get the water out of rear enclosed foam boxes on a flat bottom boat. Thanks to all the others for their advice. I will continue on and post more pictures as i go.

PSG-1 · Apr 17, 2012

Hmmmm, I must be doing something wrong. I have a 15 year old boat with factory foam in it that's bone dry... how did that happen???

OH! I remember now!!! I keep my boat in good repair, I drain my bilge after every trip, I store my boat covered with the drain plug out, and when I clean it I do it on a sunny day and let it dry completely before covering it. My boat isn't garage kept, but it is kept covered outside and protected from the elements. Anyone that owns a boat can do this. If the can't, they either don't deserve to own a boat... or they deserve to have to dig out their nasty waterlogged foam and replace it.

Don't give me that "it's not possible" stuff, it it possible. I know some people like the convenience of leaving their boat on the water and tied to the dock, but you can pay and pay dearly for that convenience. Leaving a boat uncovered and exposed to the elements will are it rapidly... and the owner has has themselves to blame for this, hence the neglect in my above post.

Perhaps so. But those of us who live on the water and own a boat, keep our boats in the water a majority of the time. No sense in owning a boat to look at it sitting on the trailer in the yard, because of concerns over foam being waterlogged, etc. That's about like owning a gun and never firing it because you don't want to hurt the value. WTF?! (I shoot every gun I own with the exception of an 1851 Colt Navy revolver, the workings of it are loose, cylinder timing is off, and it would be dangerous to shoot) That said, a boat CAN be kept in the water without being neglected. I've kept boats in the water (salt water at that) for the last 30 years.

I know no one wats to take the blame for their own mistakes... so let's blame it on the manufacturer, yeah! That's it! The manufacturer!!!

When it comes to issues like foam being placed in the boat in such a manner that it blocks the gutters, and does not allow water to drain, to keep the foam from saturating with water.....yes, that is a DIRECT fault of the manufacturer, as they are the experts at building boats, they should understand all of this.

Now, if I leave my boat in the water, never put bottom paint on it, let barnacles and about 10 bushels of oysters and algae a foot in length to grow on the hull.... if I don't bother to put a zinc on my hull to prevent galvanic corrosion.......if I don't bother to put a bilge pump in the boat, or occasionally bail it or run it with the plug out and let the water stand in the boat and waterlog the foam.....YES, that is neglect, and that IS my fault, for being a lazy chooch that doesn't give a crap about preventive maintenance, and I deserve what I get.

There's a difference in the two, and where the blame is placed.

And with that, I'm done with this discussion.

jladdsmith · Apr 17, 2012

Consider that I just went through it with this guy on another thread "How Much Foam"

He is listed as being from Alabanana.

Feathers ruffled all around.

Move on, guy.

Jdholmes · Apr 17, 2012

Some folks on here need some communication skills training...most of us must spend a little less time admiring our dry foam and a little more learning how to have polite conversation and respect the outlook of others.

Anytime the 'foam' conversations pop up this is what is seems to come to...

bassboy1 · Apr 17, 2012

Jigngrub, PM sent.

Dawson

PSG-1 · Apr 18, 2012

Jdholmes said:
Some folks on here need some communication skills training...most of us must spend a little less time admiring our dry foam and a little more learning how to have polite conversation and respect the outlook of others.

A decade ago, when I was a little nastier-tempered, I might have taken someone's condescending attitude more personally, and gotten REALLY raw with my response. Guess age has made me a little more mellow.

That said, let's just all agree that foam does indeed have a purpose in a boat, if it didn't, the CG wouldn't require manufacturers to use it, and have their boats rated for 'level flotation' But let's also agree that there are right and wrong ways to install it, and there are right and wrong ways to insure its integrity.

jigngrub · Apr 18, 2012

Contrary to popular belief, expanding foam doesn't suck up water like a sponge the first time it comes in contact with it, it has to be repeatedly exposed/submersed.

From the USComposites site:

Common Applications: Our 2LB density marine foam is recommended for void filling in nonstructural applications. This product can be poured underneath decks and inside cavities where a lightweight flotation foam is needed to provide buoyancy. This foam has been tested in accordance with U.S. Coast Guard Regulation # 33 CFR 183.114 . This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years. We recommend this product strictly for flotation applications. If looking for a liquid foam for sculpting or casting we recommend using at minimum our 3LB or 4LB density. More questions? [Try our Foam FAQ.]

Call it whatever you want and blame whomever you want, but if your floatation foam is being subjected to continous submersion... I call that neglect.

For those that are fortunate enough to live on the water, buy a covered boat lift like the one your neighbor has... your boat will thank you for it.

btw, for anyone that might be curious as to what the foam looks like in my boat:

This is the factory foam in a '98 Tracker Pro Deep V 17 (that's right, a Tracker!) I bought new in '97... if the foam in your boat doesn't look like this, you may want to consider buying a quality made boat the next time you buy... Buy a TRACKER! :wink:

FuzzyGrub · Apr 18, 2012

I have seen bad pour in foam work in both alum and fiberglass boats. It is not unusual to see the main drain channels plugged. While JnG's are clear, the pictures don't show how water would drain toward the center, from the sides. Some mfgs must think that water will never get in there. Water will always find a way!

fool4fish1226 · Apr 18, 2012

I know one thing for sure about two part pour foam, I sticks to your skin like theres no tomorrow. :LOL2:

my take on foam or no foam

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