Deck, what's level?

Okay, this may seem like a foolish question. When I started on my front deck, I just ran a 12 foot long 2 x 4 over both bench seats, and used this level to establish the level for the front deck. It certainly made sense to me at the time. I would not normally build a floor out of level on purpose. In looking at some other decks, none of them look like mine, so now thinking I made a mistake. What is correct or is there a correct level for a deck?. I seem to be having a bunch of problems establishing base lines as nothing in a boat is truly square, level or symmetrical. Close, but I bet if most people measured their boat they would find the same thing. Somebody said to me the other day "throw away your tape measure".

Please see the attached pics. I can change things at this point if necessary, although I'd have to undo a fair number of rivets, and just as soon not go backwards, but if what I've done is going to create problems, then I'm all for a correction.

Troy

Don't throw away the tape measure, but you can put the level away. Level on the trailer isn't level on the water and even then it will change depending on weight distribution. I measure down from the gunwales to determine level for the deck/floor. And as you suggest, things aren't symmetrical. You're not working with something like a car where doors have to fit tightly and parts must necessarily be precise in order for the thing to come together. You're working with an open boat that in some ways is as close to hand made as it is to manufactured. What you need to throw away is your expectation that things are precisely machined and assembled. If a rib is slightly off its intended center doesn't matter until it comes time to fit an interior into it. It's only then that precision matters to the manufacturer. The manufacturer can't have their workers custom fitting each interior part because the boat wasn't accurately made from the start. Jon boats are often listed as "utility" boats by manufacturers. That should give an important clue as to the precision with which they are made.

Definitely keeping an eye on this thread. I decided to add a small section of dry stotage towards the bow and I was thinking I will have a similar issue to tackle in trying to keep things straight. To me straight and symmetrical while having a clean finished look is more important than level, because like bobberboy said, level on the water will likely be very different.

Edit: I don't think running the 2x4 is necessarily a bad idea, but I would use something that is more likely to be close to perfectly flat and straight like a piece of square aluminum frame.

Don't get too hung up on this. I went with the same level as my middle bench/livewell. Worked out for me. Is it level? Don't know and can't tell when on the water.

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363006#p363006 said:

DrNip » 32 minutes ago[/url]"]Don't get too hung up on this. I went with the same level as my middle bench/livewell. Worked out for me. Is it level? Don't know and can't tell when on the water.

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X2

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363006#p363006 said:

DrNip » Today, 9:16 am[/url]"]Don't get too hung up on this. I went with the same level as my middle bench/livewell. Worked out for me. Is it level? Don't know and can't tell when on the water.

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This

Same here.

Just ran 2x4's from the front foot step to the first bench.

Slapped some plywood on it. Level as it's gonna be.

As mentioned, can't tell when on the water... seems like the weight of the platform and my body make it level.

Thanks for all the feedback folks! Measuring down from the gunwales makes the most sense to me, and visually this looks right, although it's definitely not level. I wasn't even concerned about this until I started putting some cardboard on top of my aluminum platform to use as a template, and notice things looked a little strange. Then I started comparing my boat to other pictures of completed projects, and all of the decks seem to conform to the gunwales rails, and visually this looks appealing, even though it's not remotely level. In my boat it's probably 4 inches out of level, but visually looks correct.

So, not exactly what I wanted to hear but I think I know I really need to redo what I have here--****! It's not quite starting from scratch, but close. Fortunately I did not rivet anything to the ribs of the boat. Everything is just free-floating at the moments, so I can drill out my rivets, but all my support pieces are going to be too short if I raise things up.

Thanks again for the feedback. I've definitely got my first lesson in customizing a boat. I know my very first piece of deck material I cut at the stern was a parallelogram due to the bench seat being installed askew, but that's what was needed. It looks okay at least.

Here's another shot of my aluminum framing and the height. The little piece of PVC is my proposed new height, and there's a good 4 inches difference there. It is more parallel to the gunwales though, and visually looks about right.

Hope this helps someone else! I was back and forth to the miter saw a bunch of time trying to get my angles just right, so this is definitely not as quick as I thought it would be. And to anyone else contemplating one of these projects, don't be surprised if the starboard side is different than the port in height. I'm just trying to make my frame square at least, and this will definitely help with openings. Cutting out a bunch of parallelograms could be a nightmare.

Troy

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363006#p363006 said:

DrNip » 12 Aug 2014, 04:16[/url]"]Don't get too hung up on this. I went with the same level as my middle bench/livewell. Worked out for me. Is it level? Don't know and can't tell when on the water.

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Same height as the middle bench seat from what point! The bow floor curves up. That's part of the problem. I going to measure from the gunwales top rail down. If the deck follows that line, it at least looks right, even though it's not remotely level. I totally missed this, and was pulling from 30 years experience in carpentry as to "norms". Need to learn to throw away my normal way of thinking when it comes to this stuff. I'm going to go tuck tail here, and take this apart and start over

Troy

I can't really tell the size of your boat. If you're dead set on moving your deck up, then I would at least make it so that the finished deck height is flush with your front "step". You could rivet a piece of angle onto the front step, and run your bracing off of that back to the middle seat. Add support where needed. Also, when you are on the bow fishing, that "level" will be different than when it is sitting on the trailer.

Let me see if I can find pics of previous rebuilds on here that show what I'm talking about.

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363064#p363064 said:

cwphoto » 30 minutes ago[/url]"]

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363006#p363006 said:

DrNip » 12 Aug 2014, 04:16[/url]"]Don't get too hung up on this. I went with the same level as my middle bench/livewell. Worked out for me. Is it level? Don't know and can't tell when on the water.

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Same height as the middle bench seat from what point! The bow floor curves up. That's part of the problem. I going to measure from the gunwales top rail down. If the deck follows that line, it at least looks right, even though it's not remotely level. I totally missed this, and was pulling from 30 years experience in carpentry as to "norms". Need to learn to throw away my normal way of thinking when it comes to this stuff. I'm going to go tuck tail here, and take this apart and start over

Troy

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Huh? I didn't measure up the bench on either side. I put a level on the middle bench and raised or lowered my trailer until it was level. Then I had my boat at the proper angle for the levelness of the top of the bench and made it the same on my casting deck which turned out to be the same as the bow I was extending off of.

Forgot to add that I did a cardboard template mock up 1st to make sure it all jived.

I think I'm following. What I was originally trying to do was get the front casting deck on the same plane as the seat tops. I used a 12 foot long (very straight) 2 x 4 and sat that on top of both the front and rear bench seats, so it simply extended into the bow section. I use the word "level", but that's not really what I was doing. I never actually used a level. Anyway, when I did this it was not level, er parallel, relative to the gunwales rail tops. All of these boats curve up at the bow by design, so it stands to reason if you run the deck parallel to the gunwales rail tops, it ain't going to be level, but it will look good I would not be at all surprised if you stand on the casting deck, it goes close to level on the water.

If you go back to my first photograph and compare the distance between the gunwale top rail to the deck, you'll see just how far out it is, (about 4" off) and this is on a plane the same as the bench seats. It looks off and is rather distracting.

Anyway, I'm just throwing this all out the window, and making it about the same distance down from the gunwales rail tops. Visually it looks about right, and in most of the pictures I've seen of completed projects this is what people are doing. Level, as others have pointed out, doesn't have much meaning in this case.

I will say it drives a person like me crazy, as I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist.

Troy

Here's at least one other photograph where the guy ran the deck parallel to the gunwale rail tops. I'm sure it's not level, but I don't think you will argue that it "look good" and correct.

Troy

I have my front deck at an upward slant by maybe a few inches. My boat is a modified v, so when I move up to the deck to fish its level. This also give me a few more inches of storage in the front of the boat under the deck.

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363069#p363069 said:

pjcalla » 12 Aug 2014, 10:14[/url]"]I can't really tell the size of your boat. If you're dead set on moving your deck up, then I would at least make it so that the finished deck height is flush with your front "step". You could rivet a piece of angle onto the front step, and run your bracing off of that back to the middle seat. Add support where needed. Also, when you are on the bow fishing, that "level" will be different than when it is sitting on the trailer.

Let me see if I can find pics of previous rebuilds on here that show what I'm talking about.

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That would be too far out of level. Parallel to the top rail of the boat visually looks the best to me so that's what I've decided on. My front step is only a few inches from the top rail vs. nearly 5 inches at the seat top. A little step at the front is no big deal, but originally I was close to 4 inches differences, and it just looks weird and off. Take a look at the first photograph I posted versus the last of another members completed boat, and you'll see what I'm talking about. These are the kinds of things nobody really mentions on their project list, but I wish they would!

I've got it all tore apart and have started fresh. I'm able to use a few of the old pieces at least, and hopefully I have enough material, as I can only buy this stuff in 25 foot lengths.

Troy

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363090#p363090 said:

Timtactical » 12 Aug 2014, 11:45[/url]"]I have my front deck at an upward slant by maybe a few inches. My boat is a modified v, so when I move up to the deck to fish its level. This also give me a few more inches of storage in the front of the boat under the deck.

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Yeap, I bet if we were to analyze the vast majority of casting decks, that would be the scenario. All boats curve a little bit up at the bow by design, and the more pictures I look at the more I'm noticing that the casting decks follow that same contour or level, which would make them all out of level, but they look good! Who would of thought! I agree about the storage as well

I sure learned a valuable lesson, and loss 4-5 hours worth of work and some material in the process.

Troy

Your 1st pic does look crazy.

I never thought to put in my build how I came to the conclusion of my deck levelness. Now that I think of it I can't remember any other build talking about how they came up with theirs. I remember I contemplated it for awhile until I came up with the level on the bench and raising/lowering the trailer until the bubble was level and then making my deck off of that.

If I had to do it again I would make my casting deck lower. I was back and forth numerous times on how high to make it. At one point I set on making it as high as yours and using a battery box seat pedestal on the front seat. At the last minute I went against it and made the deck just below the gunwale. I like it but at times I feel I'm too high and wish it were lower. My next boat will be lower.

All this talk makes me want to take a level with me next time out!

[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363147#p363147 said:

DrNip » 12 Aug 2014, 17:31[/url]"]Your 1st pic does look crazy.

I never thought to put in my build how I came to the conclusion of my deck levelness. Now that I think of it I can't remember any other build talking about how they came up with theirs. I remember I contemplated it for awhile until I came up with the level on the bench and raising/lowering the trailer until the bubble was level and then making my deck off of that.

If I had to do it again I would make my casting deck lower. I was back and forth numerous times on how high to make it. At one point I set on making it as high as yours and using a battery box seat pedestal on the front seat. At the last minute I went against it and made the deck just below the gunwale. I like it but at times I feel I'm too high and wish it were lower. My next boat will be lower.

All this talk makes me want to take a level with me next time out!

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One thing I am doing with this build is putting a large removable hatch directly in front of the forward bench seat. A person can remove that, and sit with their feet on the floor of the boat or also cast with their feet also on the bottom of the boat. I'm going to try to set it up so that the depth ( from to back) is no wider than the distance between my supports for the casting deck. This way when I remove it I can slide it under the deck out of the way. I am reinforcing the whole thing with three-quarter inch square by eighth of an inch stock. I've got most of the new deck built, but it sure is now angled up, but with the cardboard on top of it, it looks correct.

When I get the actual deck attached– hopefully in a few more days I'll post a picture, although the entire project will be under the completed boat projects.

I am developing a much greater admiration for everybody who attempts these projects, as they are far more labor-intensive than first meets the eye! I'm sure I'm going to love it when it's all done though!

Troy

Having drawn several aluminum hulls, here's my take:
The bow of the boat is obviously deeper on a V-hull and the front "seat" is part of the hull support. This "seat" sits higher up the sides for better structural support. If it was the same "level" as the seats further back, it would not be as effective sitting so low plus it would be that much narrower.