New paint failed

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bonz_d

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Hello folks,
Hopefully someone with more experience than I can answer this problem.
I recently did a test application of some paint that I've never used on aluminum though I have used it in the past on many trailers. The paint is a Rustoleum product, Industrial Choice 3700System DTM Acrylic Enamel.

I 1st treated these pieces with a etching primer and then applied the paint with a roller and everything looked good. Went out the next morning and found it all blistered. It all peeled off in large sheets. Now during the night the temp dropped and there was high dew points, also everything was wet when I went out to look in the morning.

So what do you think? Was this the paint failing because of the aluminum or was it a failure because of the temps and wet dew? I applied the paint early enough in the day that I didn't think the temp drop overnight would make a difference.

Should I give it another try?
 
I can't tell you about that specific paint because I have never used it. But I did have some experience with another paint years ago. I worked in a shop that had me painting panels and the paint I was using had a time limit on applying the second coat of about two hours. If you waited longer than two hours you had to wait about twenty four hours hours before applying the second coat or it would do exactly as you mentioned. Is it possible the etching primer you applied is causing the problem? Maybe it is reacting that way because of the different cure rates. I don't know. Maybe someone else on here can give you more advice on it. Good luck.
 
KMixson said:
Maybe it is reacting that way because of the different cure rates.
I too think it was caused by the two different paints ...

Perhaps the way the 1st coat cures is that the pigment carriers vapor off, or 'out gas' as it is technically termed, and thus got 'trapped' under that paint coat layer.
 
failure because of the temps and wet dew

99.9% of the time, latex (water based) paints will adhere as it is designed to do
IF it is used and applied in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

"sometimes" if the object is put in full sun so the moisture can evaporate,
you "might" luck out and the paint will re-adhere to the surface. But, often times
you will not get the protection or look that you wanted.
Read, understand and follow the instructions on the label of any product and
you will normally be satisfied with the results.

Fresh latex paints are a pain to sand off - - - but may be necessary if you want a nice finish with repainting.

Question: Did you apply the self etching primer to existing paint or bare metal ?
Also - do you fully understand the "DTM Acrylic Enamel" ???
DTM = Directly To Metal . . . . withOUT a primer. But, will work okay if applied over regular primer,
sound and non flaking existing coatings that have been cleaned well.

APPLICATION from the Rust-Oleum website:
Apply only when the air and surface temperatures are between 50-
100° F (10-38° C) and the surface temperature is at least 5° F (3° C)
above the dew point. The relative humidity should not be greater
than 85%. Extremely high or low relative humidity can effect dry
times and the final gloss of the coating. For optimum protection on
abrasive-blasted steel, two coats of Rust-Oleum Industrial Speedy-Dry
DTM Acrylic Red or Gray Primer plus one coat of Rust-Oleum
Industrial Speedy-Dry DTM Acrylic Enamel are required.

What are you painting ? PHOTOS will help more.
Hope you can get it figured out.
 
Thanks for the input guys! At this stage I don't know what happened. This paint I'm using I get as a freebie so not concerned about cost. As I said before, I've used this on steel trailers w/o an incident and it has worked well for that. I know aluminum is a bit more involved when painting and thought I had cleaned the surfaces very well and primed them properly. Which is why I think it may be that moisture got under it from the dew which might have lifted it. The etching primer is also a Rustoleum product.

So being as this is a Test I re-sprayed the primer and will let it sit overnight and then tomorrow I will try and spray this same paint and then move it indoors overnight and see if it reoccurs.

2 reasons for doing this. One is because I want to see if it will work and be durable and the other is because it is the closest I can find to the color I want w/o going to an expensive marine paint.
 
Johnny, I was posting last response I guess as the same time you where!

Yes I read and understand the directions and even talked to Rustoleum tech the other day before I did this. He did tell me it should work w/o any problems with adhesion.

Etching Primer is a light coat over existing paint and bare aluminum, they do also make a primer for this paint to be used on steel.

Was and am a little apprehensive about using a Latex paint on a boat just for these reasons and the durability factor. But because I'm trying to use it in the interior I didn't think the durability would be as great of an issue. Plus I have enough of this that I could touch it up for years to come if needed.

The paint and pictures of what I'm doing are shown in my other thread here, https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=39165

Will be interested to hear any other ideas you may have! Even if it means changing paint.
 
in my very personal and educated opinion, anyone will have problems
with any freshly painted water based paint if left OUTSIDE OVER NIGHT. . . . .
to me, in my world, that often invites catastrophic results.

I have been a sign painter for over 40 years. Using any and every kind of
paint that is on the market. Some of my worst failures was to hurry up and
get it done and install a freshly painted sign late in the evening . . . .
only to have the customer call me the next morning to tell me come take down
that garbage I had installed. NOT a good feeling !!!

I know that paints made 5 years ago are far "different" than paints of today, due to the EPA stuff.
But, I still stand by my statement that overnight low temps and dew can kill latex painted projects.
Paint early in the day. Fall and cooler weather is upon us now. Any outside painting projects
should be started AFTER the morning dew is gone and before noon.
I paint in Florida...... much much different than you guys up North. BUT, we painters, whether it be
a house, barn, signs, boat or car know that the devil lurks in the night and will gobble up your project.

Did you let your trailers sit outside overnight when you painted them ? Were they freshly painted or
painted early in the day. Was it in the summer, fall or winter ?
hundreds of variables can affect paint adhesion and finishes.

I suggest you paint a small panel the same way you would paint your boat
and put it in your garage or utility room over night and compare the results.
Also, do the same with another panel - but paint early in the day, leave it outside
over night, just as you would with your boat, and compare the results.
 
Johnny, again thanks for the reply! I did not know you were a pro and now I do!!! Appreciate your knowledge. I am not a painter by any means and actually don't really enjoy it either. I do it because it's needed. Had a brother-in-law that was a body man and boy could he paint. Amazed me with some of the street rods he'd done.

Anyway, yes this was painted outside, yes it was left outside. Painting was completed by 2:30pm and temps were still about 70deg.. Never even entered my thoughts about overnight dew because it's been so dry.

I understand the changes and reasons that have been made to paint over the years and aware of some of the hazards associated with some paints. Especially when spraying them which is also why I'm staying away from some of the 2 part paints.

Another site that I usually visit most there are using oil based enamels and adding a hardener to it. Which as I read can be hazardous when sprayed also.

So do you think this latex paint will work for what I'm trying to do or should I change to something else?
 
my first painting project was in 1967.
A 1940 US Navy Destroyer Escort, 305 feet long, 35 foot beam.
LOL LOL but that was not by choice !!
Have learned quite a bit since then !!

I wrote an article on primers. It might be worth your time to read.
https://www.tinboats.net/primer-and-paint-basics/
I'm working on another article all about paints. But, with my research,
I am totally dumbfounded at how the EPA has all but eliminated the
paints I am accustomed to using. So I am learning all over again, just as some of you.
I have been in close contact with Sherwin-Williams, Rust-Oleum, Benjamin Moore, etc.
only to be educated from scratch with the correct paints we can use on our boats.
Basically, they are all in agreement to use their 35 year exterior house paints in the flat finish
for the inside of the hull. Rust-Oleum has their new line of marine enamel paints.
Gonna be an adventure, for sure.

Good Luck in your endeavors !!!
 
Johnny, I just read your article and it was very enlightening! Looks like I was misinformed or misguided about the use of etching primer.

Rustoleum does make a latex primer to go along with this latex DTM and state that it is only needed in very extreme cases or when the metal has been media blasted. I have used that primer with this paint on some steel that was pitted. Worked very well.

I take it you have used the latex aluminum primer from reading your article. Any advise? Sounds like it would be the correct way to go and should work well with this latex paint.

Thanks for the help!
 
Yes, I have used the latex primer and fully endorse it.
It has the body of regular latex house paint and is very user friendly.
Probably the most user friendly of all the primers on the market today.
Latex Primer.jpg
Just follow the directions . . . Like latex paint, don't let it sit outside over night.
Personally, I don't like the latex gloss, semi-gloss or satin paints for exterior use.
They keep this icky yicky feel for days and slow to "cure" in high humidity areas.
one quart of primer will cover about 100 square feet. A bit pricey in my opinion.

There is no need to make a boat project any harder than it has to be. If you over think
every step and put too much into it - you will quickly become overwhelmed and frustrated.
it is only a BOAT !!!! Not your family car. Actually, any kind of primer will
work well. Oil or Latex. It is all in the prep. I have painted many boats, wood, fiberglass
and aluminum with no primer at all. And had good results for years.
The best primer I ever used was back in the '70s . . . two part epoxy chromate that was used
on aircraft. That stuff WORKED !!! BUT - it worked so well, EPA took it out the reach of
us average guys. So, we just experiment with what we have to see what works best.
If you have unlimited funds, there are all sorts of fancy marine primers that will give you the
showroom razzle-dazzle finish . . . but then, your boat will be too dog gone pretty to use !!!!
Remember - cool humid nights will kill any paint job !!!!
 
Thanks again!

Agree about the KISS and not over building. Once upon a time I was in a heated argument with a guy about a boat project. Finally had to tell him thanks for the advice but I'm rebuilding a fishing boat not building a monument.

Another reason for trying to use this paint is because I am looking for a small amount of texture and not a bright shiny finish. Also agree that the latex does take more time to cure though once cured has held up well on the steel trailers.

The 1st time I'd used this paint was outside in direct sun on a cool early morning. By afternoon it had orange peeled pretty good. Didn't do that again.

For grins I'm going to try one more time on those 2 panels and will look to see where I can get the latex primer locally. Will post back the results.
 
I was able to find this primer at our local Menards for about $8.50 a qt.

Now a dilemma. There was an area on the boat that I also applied some of this paint on and didn't pull it all off the other morning. What is left has flattened out and has adhered so that I cannot scratch it off. So now what?

I haven't yet tried to reapply to the other panels though I still want to. I now think johnny was right about the dew and leaving it outside overnight. Big mistake on my part!

Johnny, I would like to try and spray this paint to see if I can get a feel for it. Website has suggestions for using a 1.4 or 1.8 tip in the spray gun and to reduce with water at 1pt to 1gal. Any tips or suggestions you can offer?
 
wow - normally I have a shop with controlled environment to work in.
It is hard to navigate through the steps that you have taken to get to this point.

Without seeing your project, it is only a guess as to what will work and not work.
IF the paint has re-stuck firmly, I would say it is safe to scuff it and prime over it.
I have only brushed the latex primer so I can not vouch for the spray application.

Back to the original suggestion - pick a spot and do a trial sample as to what will work for you.
Figure up your square footage and try to mix only that amount thinned.
I try to never return mixed paints back to the original can unless all of it has been
thinned and will be used up within a month or so. Not advisable to mix a gallon at a time
to do only 3/4s of a quart job.

Keep in the back of your mind . . . it is only a BOAT - - - K.I.S.S.
 
Thanks again johnny, going to have to decide on something soon as I just looked at the weather forecast and it's not looking good for next week.. Thinking right now to test again then move the other boat out of the garage while I paint this one.

Procedure I used was to hose out all debris, wash down with hot detergent water, scuff with coarse 3M Scotch-brite pads. Apply light coat of etching primer, cure then paint rolled on with fine foam roller. Paint applied outside, temp about 75deg. Then the mistake of leaving it outside overnight uncovered.

The original paint is still solid other than some bare spots that are worn down or scratched. Was able to remove the old oxidized paint with the scotch pads.
 
Sounds like a plan !!!

The instructions on the paint can says not to apply in temps lower than 50*f.
Most latex paints "dry to handle" in 4 hours, depending on temp & humidity.

If you apply the product at 4pm @70*f . . . . what will be the temp and humidity
4 hours later at 8pm ?? My rule of thumb is not to paint anything outside that will
not have a minimum of 6 hours of warm sunshine.

I asked a friend of mine that lives in Canada how do they paint their outside signs
in the winter time . . . . he responded with - "we don't".

I hope that everyone that reads this thread knows it is very okay to chime in with
their own experiences and suggestions. The more information the better.
 
So I did paint those 2 panels again this afternoon Temp is 75deg and the dew point is at 55deg.. Am just going to leave the one coat for today and then leave them in the garage overnight to see what happens. Will deffenately post results in the morning.

And yes if any others have thoughts, suggestions, comments I'd be more than happy to hear them.

I understand this is a bit off the wall or out of the ordinary as to what is normally done and the paint that is being used but as mentioned earlier with the state of the world and ever changing regulations we may someday have no alternative but to use latex paint or have it done by a professional that has the facilities to meet the regulations..
 
Report as promised.

Just went out to inspect the paint from yesterday and all looks well this time. Good adhesion, no bubbles and as expected from previous uses the paint is still a bit soft and can be easily scratched. Which I was expecting. Seems that this paint takes about 5 to 6 days to cure nice and hard. Which is also OK by me as I have other projects to keep busy while I wait.

Now it looks like there will be no painting for a few days. Temps to day are to be in the 60's with very high humidity and then rain the next 2 days. So I'd like to thank everyone for the comments and assistance and of course I will be proceeding with this cautiously. Will also be posting up pictures here and in my Pike Attacker thread for anyone interested in following.
 

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