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Riverman

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I've owned boats for 50-years now and never owned an all-welded boat. I've enjoyed many rivet boats with good success. Not sure that I want to spend 3 or 4 times as much for a welded boat at my age. I can afford one, but who knows how long I will live. What's your opinion on rivet vs. welded boats? Thanks
 
A good friend of mine, who also happens to be my favorite boat motor mechanic, told me about the time that a major manufacturer started welding their boats.

It seemed that there was a learning curve. The first few yeas of production were not of the same quality as the prior riveted boats.

richg99
 
I have a welded boat but the ribs are riveted. Go figure? It's the worst of both worlds, a bit like a motorcycle and sidecar. What's the point? Welds were fine, rivets leaked until the fix was applied.
 
For what it is worth, I am considering replacing my kayak (that I keep on a small pond) with a small tin boat. I am going to be looking carefully at the riveted versions. Mostly due to the low weight and low cost compared to welded boats.

The usage will NOT be subject to much stress. The pond is only 8 acres and no motors are allowed. 99% of the time, I will be the only fisherman using the boat.

richg99
 
I have had both and can accurately comment on the characteristics of both.

There are good welded boats, and there are junk welded boats. A junk welded boat is still stronger than a good riveted boat; but the difference between those two was outlined by CedarRiverScooter. Rivets are easier to fix unless you have a welder set up to do aluminum, TIG being a better quality weld than a Mig. And you shouldn't solder aluminum with one of those propane torch aluminum soldering kits (notice I did not say 'welding' kits).

The characteristics. Riveted boats are lighter. Why? Because they're made from thinner material-generally speaking. The thin material allows the boat to flex quite a bit which over time allows the rivets to loosen up, and bucking them will tighten them back up for a few more years. Just don't leave them loose-because the hole that the rivet goes through can become oblonged and then the rivet may not tighten back up like it needs to. Riveted boats are generally speaking cheaper boats in a lot of ways. Performance on the water, they're perfectly fine for open water and for angers who aren't concerned with speed, handling, and/or how tough it is.

A welded boat is generally of a thicker material. It has to be in order for it to be welded properly. That characteristic makes the boat more rigid as a whole. The extra rigidity makes your trip feel more confident if you will. The thicker material obviously is less susceptible to major denting should an operator hit a submerged stump, tree, rock, etc. Keep in mind that not all welded boats are create equal. There are cheap welded boats. A lot of them are smaller and don't have horsepower ratings; they'll have a commercial tag on them. Those are the mass-produced hulls. They use a marketing tactic that I call "mass marketing"....in other words, build more boats and keep the cost down as much as possible to make the money. And the mass production really shows if you sit down and pick the boat apart. All MIG welded, no TIG welds (TIG takes longer but is far superior), use of really tall transverse ribs, permanently installed floors (not screwed or riveted in, so you can't access the soaked floatation under it-if it even has any), cheap wood transoms with exposed wood in some cases, etc etc. You know they're cheap if you see them. A better quality boat will have a removable floor, multi-piece transverse or any type of longitudinal ribbing, no wood exposed on the transom, a real horsepower rating, etc. You know quality when you see it. But that quality comes at a price-and usually you get what you pay for.

I have seen the cheaper welded boats fold up when they hit a tree. And I've seen better quality boats hit trees in flooded timber at full speed (~35mph) and bounce off, with a ding maybe, but never major damage. This is considered "confidence in equipment" if you can rely on the boat in those types situations, you don't have to worry about it.

Resale. Riveted boats are generally cheaper from the get-go, and should you decide to give it to someone else, or sell it, you'll take more of a hit than if it were riveted, supply and demand. Riveted boats are everywhere and a dime a dozen, so you have to compete with that market. Welded boats aren't all over the place, they're tougher less common and generally less "beat up", thus retain more of their value. I've been offered more than what I paid for mine when I bought it new in 2012, yes it's welded (.100ga 1548). It gets a l of comments, but it's nothing special really.

Welded boats can be formed and built differently, and the hull is usually stiffer, so they're generally a faster hull-even though they're usually heavier than a riveted boat. Less drag. Some hull designs just can't be reliably made with riveted panels.

Now those who haven't had and used both designs can't accurately say that one's better than the other, but I have owned, operated, and enjoyed both styles. If I were buying another today, I'd buy a welded boat unless it was something I just wanted to throw into the back of the pickup and float around in a small body of water, say a pond, where it would have to be dragged or carried to the water's edge, or if I didn't care how badly I beat it up on the way, and then I'd get a riveted boat.
 
Crestliner had some amazing welded boats from abou 1968 through the early 2000s. I've thought the newer ones were cheapened up a bit, though. I have a 1987 Mirage and a 1968 Tiger Muskie. The Mirage I've had since 1996 and I will NEVER get rid of it. It's a tank.
 
ericman said:
Crestliner had some amazing welded boats from abou 1968 through the early 2000s. I've thought the newer ones were cheapened up a bit, though. I have a 1987 Mirage and a 1968 Tiger Muskie. The Mirage I've had since 1996 and I will NEVER get rid of it. It's a tank.

My Cresty '94 Sportfish 1750 is amazing. Seriously beefy boat.
 
[The characteristics. Riveted boats are lighter. Why? Because they're made from thinner material-generally speaking. The thin material allows the boat to flex quite a bit which over time allows the rivets to loosen up, and bucking them will tighten them back up for a few more years. Just don't leave them loose-because the hole that the rivet goes through can become oblonged and then the rivet may not tighten back up like it needs to. Riveted boats are generally speaking cheaper boats in a lot of ways. Performance on the water, they're perfectly fine for open water and for angers who aren't concerned with speed, handling, and/or how tough it is. [/quote]

That all depends on the riveted boat. The last boat I had before I put my Jon together was a 16'8" Polar Kraft. .100 Aluminum, doubled on the bow, all riveted. Would do 41 mph with a 90hp Yami. Never leaked a drop, and I ran in rough water, was a "dry boat", and handled great. If I were still up north I'd still have it.

Like I said, it all depends on the boat. As you stated, there are good and not so good welded boats, IMO the same is true of riveted.

I'm now on my 7th season with my 1648 Alumacraft which is both riveted and welded, and no leaks yet.
 

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In ship-building, rivets were and always will be stronger. Mechanical connections, like rivets, are inherently stronger because the sheet metal has no porosity, the fasteners (rivets) have no porosity. A ship, with all its length and expectations of experiencing harsher conditions, will flex quite a bit. Welds have porosity. Porous metal is the FIRST metal to break when flexed.

That being said, because of the superiority of fastening sheets of metal together with rivets, boat builders were able to build lighter and lighter boats, reducing cost of manufacture and ultimately reducing retail cost for consumer. However, to improve a hull's ability to withstand the occasional scrape across rocks and bumps against the dock, bigger boats required thicker aluminum. Although a riveted boat is cheaper to manufacture ( a result of the substantial cost savings of using .050" aluminum versus .100" or greater), the mere act of getting everything template properly and bucking several thousand rivets, the labor cost AND the cost of going to a thicker aluminum makes the boat more expensive. Robot welding can be done much cheaper and much faster than riveting. And boats under 30 feet in length simply will not experience the overall flex that a ship will experience (i.e. when bow is on top of one wave and stern is on top of another and the rest of the boat is potentially suspended). A welded boat will perform just fine for the average boat owner.

Plus, the improved hydrodynamics of a smoother hull and the elimination of the possibility of sheered or leaky rivets and ease of repair of welds does make a strong case for welded boats being the best.

So, to sum up. Bigger heavier boats ARE better when they are welded. BUT, small light-weight, low-horsepower, rowable boats are better when they are riveted.

I own 3 boats.
Crestliner Tiger Muskie (welded aluminum tri-hull)
Crestliner Mirage (welded aluminum boat converted to tiller)
Alumacraft 1949 Model B (46 inch wide rowboat)
 
ericman said:
In ship-building, rivets were and always will be stronger. Mechanical connections, like rivets, are inherently stronger because the sheet metal has no porosity, the fasteners (rivets) have no porosity. A ship, with all its length and expectations of experiencing harsher conditions, will flex quite a bit. Welds have porosity. Porous metal is the FIRST metal to break when flexed.


True, porous material will break before "solid" material-but a good welder can weld without the porousity. A bad welder-or one who is doing mass production welding with a spool gun, the guys/company who has to do thousands of welds a day and as fast as possible, is going to have a weld quality issue from time to time. This is where I said that there are junk welded boats and decent welded boats; each one easy to spot. A weld is as strong-or in a lot of cases stronger-than the 2 materials that are welded together. You don't get this with rivets. Not in a tinny.

Cant' compare a cargo ship to a tin boat. One is thousands of tons of usually steel and needs to flex in order for it not to break apart; the other 300 lbs +/- and does a completely different job. Their basic principles are the same (they're supposed to float) but that is where the similarities end. One is a displacement hull; the other a planing hull. Aluminum is a completely different animal when it comes to attaching 2 pieces of it together. A rivet will work just fine for many years but over the years of flexing, the 2 pieces that it's holding together can (and a lot of times will) loosen up, causing the rivet that holds them to move around; at which point it needs to be bucked again. This'll tighten it up until it loosens again. I've had many riveted boats and they all eventually leaked around the rivets. Last one had, gosh, probably 3 dozen leaking rivets. Bucked them and found another owner for it.

A characteristic of a cheap riveted (and even a cheapie welded) hull is that when running across rougher water, you can watch the front half of those boats to flex and move around. All of mine did it including the Crestliner. Didn't bother me but at 50mph (17' Rhyancraft/70hp stinger) it did bother me a little.
 
At ship building scale, riveted hull plating has to be heavier since they're all lap joints, but welds can be butt joints.

Also, the skills associated with riveting heavy plates are kind of endangered.

Here's a neat video of the process.

https://gcaptain.com/watch-steel-workers-replace-old-rivets-board-liberty-ship-ss-john-w-brown/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Welded boats were meant to save labor cost and to speed production. It was supposed to save money for the consumer. But that is not how it is.

If welding is so good, then why are aircraft riveted? The aluminum HAS to flex. Welds don't. That's why they all crack. Don't really care who makes it it will eventually crack. Once it is welded, the aluminum is very difficult to repair right because of the heat stress involved in the weld. That is why the welds that are repaired usually crack right next to the weld.

Just STAY AWAY FROM ANYTHING TRACKER BOATS make and you will have less problems.
 
tomme boy said:
Welded boats were meant to save labor cost and to speed production. It was supposed to save money for the consumer. But that is not how it is.

If welding is so good, then why are aircraft riveted? The aluminum HAS to flex. Welds don't. That's why they all crack. Don't really care who makes it it will eventually crack. Once it is welded, the aluminum is very difficult to repair right because of the heat stress involved in the weld. That is why the welds that are repaired usually crack right next to the weld.

Just STAY AWAY FROM ANYTHING TRACKER BOATS make and you will have less problems.

Tracker sells a LOT of boats so there's more that will have issues then any other brand. I am not a huge fan of Tracker products but I do own a Grizzly 1860. If you compare the welds of a Tracker to a G3, you will see a big difference in how they look.

I beat the poop out of my boat. 1 foot chop I am not going slow. It really pounds the flat bottom boat especially at 30 mph. I still have not cracked a weld and my boat is 10 years old. Tracker makes a decent product for what they cost. You get what you pay for.....
 

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