Rivited vs. welded

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djohnson

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Every where I have called to get a wider boat, they keep pushing me to a welded boat???? Is a welded boat THAT much better than a rivited boat for decking??
 
It all depends on what you are going to do with it.

Welded is a lot more structurally solid.
 
My money is they are trying to bump the sale. But the all welded models do tend to not leak over time. Structually speaking I wouldn't think there would be a huge differance as the rib supports are the same. Grant you I am not an expert in either, but thats just my thoughts. BTW - My jon is a 1978 Alumicraft 1432 riveted and has no leaks, I guess it realy boils down to the craftmenship irregardless of rivets or welds.
 
Like others have noted, there are tons of riveted jons from the 60s & 70s out there that dont leak.

I plan to buy a semi V hull next year for use on Mobile Bay & Mississippi Sound. It will be a riveted hull, probably a lund or smokercraft. My riveted 1440 mv has been used in the same conditions & places for 10 years with no leaks.

If you abuse a boat, maybe welded is worth it. Maybe a little better in saltwater, some foks think so. Or if it is the hull you want and can afford it, go for it.
But on freshwater, when not abused, a riveted jon should last 20+ years. And if weight in an issue, riveted boats are a lot lighter.
 
smoody said:
Airplanes are riveted. makes me wonder the theory behind welded be superior.
You must own or have looked at a Lund. They push that point a bit.

Those who say riveted boats will start to leak after a few years obviously are talking foot and mouth. I don't hear much of that on this board, but on some of the boards I used to be an active member of (emphasis on used to be) seem to think that riveted boats WILL leak, and will attack you if you say otherwise. The fact of the matter is they may, but I will attribute a leaky riveted boat to either rough usage (hitting rocks and stuff regularly at speed), or bad construction. Don't rule out bad construction on welded boats either. If done improperly, welds will crack. I have had plenty of 40 and a couple of 50 year old riveted boats that didn't leak a drop.

If you abuse a boat, maybe welded is worth it. Maybe a little better in saltwater, some foks think so.
I used to think that this was hokus pokus, provided you rinsed the boat after each use. While the salt isn't going to just eat away at rivets, on my most recent boat project purchase, I did find why riveted boats and salt water don't mix. Obviously for a boat to be riveted, two layers of metal have to overlap. Usually, there is a sealer in between the two, but sometimes that works free, or there is a void or something. Anyway, this void will get a little water trapped inside, and start to corrode both layers from the inside out. By the time you see the corrosion, it has made its way through the whole thickness of the metal, and has often spread a couple inches along the seam.

Welded boats tend to be of thicker material, due to the toughness to weld thin aluminum, and riveted boats are thinner due to the toughness of forming and riveting thick metal. Thus, if you are just fishing lakes and rivers (not talking of people running jet boats in rocky rivers), with occasional salt water use, a riveted boat will usually do you fine. If you are running lots of rougher water, or running mostly in salt, or putting the boat in an application where a thicker, more durable hull is desirable, for running into things, or in heavy seas, go with the welded hull.

I have always had riveted boats, and always will. However, I also plan on a welded hull entering my life soon, as I am going to be building a 20 foot deep vee, with a 2 foot motor setback, for striper fishing, and inshore coastal fishing. Needs to be heavier, and made of thicker gauge metal than rivets are practical for, and will be used in salt, so welded will fit my needs better there.

Basically, one is not better than the other, but both have their advantages. If one was supreme to the other, don'tcha think we would only be seeing those?
 
I agree with Bassboy.Another issue with riveted hulls is people over powering them with large motors and generally bashing them on everything.Ever seen someone power a jon boat up onto shore, where the entire boat slides up out of the water.
 
Basically, one is not better than the other, but both have their advantages. If one was supreme to the other, don'tcha think we would only be seeing those?

I agree. My statement was to question the claim of a welded jon to be "tougher" when in reality the opposite is likely true, is welded better for "floating", again maybe but a leaky rivet is easier to repair on the water vs. a broken weld. The aircraft engineers use rivets vs. welds because the aircraft must "give" and "flex" when hit by turbulence and to withstand the force of landing the plane. With that said I guess we can't say rivets are stronger as obviously they are used when "flex" is needed resulting is a stronger bond when faced with certain conditions.

I have never owned Lund either, they are nice though.

I have owned both and like the heavier aluminum they use on the welded series.
 
I've owned 2 riveted jons, 1 a silverstar 12' and 1 high end alumacraft 14' crappie jon. Neither leaked a drop. Now I have a welded Tracker Grizzly. It seems to be a great boat. The funny thing to me about welded boats is that they are done with a mig and made with fairly "dirty" aluminum. If you really wanted it to be strong welds, the welds would be tig welded. I have had aluminum welds fail on driveshafts in race cars when they were mig welded. Never had an aluminum tig weld fail. World of difference. But it also takes tons more time and would drive the cost way up.
 
smoody said:
Basically, one is not better than the other, but both have their advantages. If one was supreme to the other, don'tcha think we would only be seeing those?

I agree. My statement was to question the claim of a welded jon to be "tougher" when in reality the opposite is likely true, is welded better for "floating", again maybe but a leaky rivet is easier to repair on the water vs. a broken weld. The aircraft engineers use rivets vs. welds because the aircraft must "give" and "flex" when hit by turbulence and to withstand the force of landing the plane. With that said I guess we can't say rivets are stronger as obviously they are used when "flex" is needed resulting is a stronger bond when faced with certain conditions.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to contradict you with my above statement. It apparently came out that way though.

Anyway, you are exactly right on the flex issue. Riveted boats are designed to have flex, as not having any give in a boat made of thin material would be disastrous. The big welded plate alloy boats are made to have no give. In fact, recently I was reading on a plate alloy boat forum about a guy whose engine fell off. The motor, an under warranty Honda 225, broke at the mount, and fell off. Honda techs scratched their heads at this issue for the longest time, and it finally took calculations from a structural engineer to solve the problem. The issue was that the owner was running the boat through 4 foot swells, then hit one larger one at a bad angle, knocking the 26 ft boat around hard. Most non alloy boats would have enough give to absorb some of that energy, but the Black Lab alloy boat had no give, and thus transferred all that energy to the motor, busting up the casting and a couple 12mm bolts.

Here is the whole story, if you want to read it.
https://www.aluminumalloyboats.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1700

TrackerTom said:
The funny thing to me about welded boats is that they are done with a mig and made with fairly "dirty" aluminum. If you really wanted it to be strong welds, the welds would be tig welded.
I'm calling BS on that. While TIG is ideal for smaller gauge metals, and "pretty" welds, on the thickness of metal that most welded boats are made of, the MIG is going to make a more structurally sound weld. Not to mention the cost. If TIG were the industry standard for aluminum boats, my estimate is that we would not see 90% of the manufactures we do.
 
Sorry, I wasn't trying to contradict you with my above statement. It apparently came out that way though.

Bassboy, I was not offended by your comment. No Biggie man. I like a good debate. You contribute here on a daily basis and give good sound advice.
 
bassboy1 said:
smoody said:
Basically, one is not better than the other, but both have their advantages. If one was supreme to the other, don'tcha think we would only be seeing those?

I agree. My statement was to question the claim of a welded jon to be "tougher" when in reality the opposite is likely true, is welded better for "floating", again maybe but a leaky rivet is easier to repair on the water vs. a broken weld. The aircraft engineers use rivets vs. welds because the aircraft must "give" and "flex" when hit by turbulence and to withstand the force of landing the plane. With that said I guess we can't say rivets are stronger as obviously they are used when "flex" is needed resulting is a stronger bond when faced with certain conditions.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to contradict you with my above statement. It apparently came out that way though.

Anyway, you are exactly right on the flex issue. Riveted boats are designed to have flex, as not having any give in a boat made of thin material would be disastrous. The big welded plate alloy boats are made to have no give. In fact, recently I was reading on a plate alloy boat forum about a guy whose engine fell off. The motor, an under warranty Honda 225, broke at the mount, and fell off. Honda techs scratched their heads at this issue for the longest time, and it finally took calculations from a structural engineer to solve the problem. The issue was that the owner was running the boat through 4 foot swells, then hit one larger one at a bad angle, knocking the 26 ft boat around hard. Most non alloy boats would have enough give to absorb some of that energy, but the Black Lab alloy boat had no give, and thus transferred all that energy to the motor, busting up the casting and a couple 12mm bolts.

Here is the whole story, if you want to read it.
https://www.aluminumalloyboats.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1700

TrackerTom said:
The funny thing to me about welded boats is that they are done with a mig and made with fairly "dirty" aluminum. If you really wanted it to be strong welds, the welds would be tig welded.
I'm calling BS on that. While TIG is ideal for smaller gauge metals, and "pretty" welds, on the thickness of metal that most welded boats are made of, the MIG is going to make a more structurally sound weld. Not to mention the cost. If TIG were the industry standard for aluminum boats, my estimate is that we would not see 90% of the manufactures we do.

The problem with Mig's and aluminum is that the welds have porosity and they also don't penetrate anywhere near like a tig. You are probably correct about not seeing near as many manufacturers if they were tig welding boats. Tig welding is a slow and tedious process which would require a lot more labor costs and probably make the boats cost prohibitive to build. There is no comparison for quality and strength though. Ask any certified welder. As you can tell, it didn't keep me from buying one. :beer:
 
Not an expert on any of these issues; mig; tig; welded or riveted. I think it boils down to the craftmenship of the boat, what it is going to be used for and the care taken by the operator. Just my thoughts.
 
Nevillizer said:
Not an expert on any of these issues; mig; tig; welded or riveted. I think it boils down to the craftmenship of the boat, what it is going to be used for and the care taken by the operator. Just my thoughts.


Ditto! 8)


Our dad taught us to take care of what we have..................because we may not get another one.
 
TrackerTom said:
The problem with Mig's and aluminum is that the welds have porosity...
Most of the time, that porosity is in the top layer of weld. A process called back chipping eliminates that. Basically, when you run a bead, you go back with a carbide blade, either on a die grinder or even a standard skil saw, and chip off the top layer of weld. Then, run another bead, and keep chipping layers off until you get to where you need to be. I guarantee none of the big name welded tinny companies do it, but you will find on some of the bigger fishing boats made by custom companies up in the Pacific Northwest that this is a somewhat common practice.

and they also don't penetrate anywhere near like a tig.

That is an apples to oranges comparison. Depending on the amperage of the welding machine, many MIGs can outdo the equivalent TIGs. You are right on the TIG getting better weld from the start, whereas the MIG, on a cold start, will take a few seconds to warm a thick piece of metal enough for a good weld. But, that can be solved by preheating the area you are going to start the bead at with a mapp or oxy-acetylene torch, and the initial penetration will be close to the same.
 

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