Battle of the 25 HP 4 strokes - which would you choose?

Hey Fellas - going to be buying a new 25 HP outboard next year for a new boat. I've always gravitated towards Yamaha - sort of the equivilent in my mind to the Toyota of outboards (I come form a Toyota family as well including a family member who works at a Yota dealership). I also used to have a 20 HP 4 stroke Yamaha on my last boat (14 foot welded V-bow) that was a great motor, light weight, quiet, no issues, etc.
Anyways, here I am shopping and I see Yamaha has come out with a new 2 cylinder with counter balancer 25 HP 4 stroke outboard that has been well reviewed. BUT, BUT, it's still got a carb. I notice the Tohatsu and it's variants (Merc, Nissan, etc.) are cheaper in general, and come with 3 cylinders, AND EFI. Now some limited reading I have done suggests that EFI is not neccessarily THAT great in the smaller motors - that the problems with carb jets blocking up from fuel could also become an issue with the smaller injectors on these motors. My biggest concern is quality - I maintain things very well but I don't want a "lemon" motor. If money was not an object, perhaps, would you choose the Yamaha carbed motor over the others? I notice Suzuki just came out with a new EFI batteryless 15 and 20 hp 4 strokes that are quite light but I wonder when Suzuki will put it on their 25 hp motor, etc. ? Same with Honda, who is also carbed if I'm not mistaken in the 25 HP segment. Thoughts?

Get an Etec

Got a Honda (x2) , a 2011 BF 25 and a 2010 BF 2. Like you i wanted something reliable and Made In Japan since almost everything we have that needs a motor is has a Honda logo on it...lawnmore,SUV (Pilot),Toyota car (Yaris),Honda pressure washer,Honda camping generator,Yamaha home generator,Honda snow blower...so naturally when came to outboards...well Honda =D> .I know it's a little heavier than other motors but i trust their legendary reliability...i thought having 3 cylinders was good for a smooth and well balanced motor and smooth and silent it is . Yes i did check Yamaha, Tohatsu (EFI !) but i believe that if you treat your fuel with stabilizer of some kind (i use Lucas) and use ethanol free gas (i use only Shell V Power Premium with "0 Ethanol)...so i gravitate towards long term reliability over convenience...like e little lighter motor,no biggie. So whatever you choose ...choose wisely...it's your $$$ !...i myself love a lost art ,the Japanese obsession with quality that still lives on
Dan

Hey Dan,
Thanks for the reply. Yup you and I think alike and have the same attitude. You said you had a 2 HP Honda as well - do you use that as a kicker or for trolling or is it only for back up power? Reason I ask is becasue I was also considering a Yamaha 2.5 HP 4 stroke for a kicker and back up power but was curious if it had enough "jam" to do the trolling thing in most instances. It probably does without issue just based on some videos I've seen of it pushing some different craft, but then vibration could become an issue as well. Also, I noticed the Honda 25 HP has a $1000 more MSRP than the Yamaha 25 HP 4 stroke though, at least on their Canadian websites (something like $5799 for the Honda 25, $4831 or something like that for the Yamaha 25). But like you said 3 cylinders vs 2 is probably a difference in quietness and smoothness (in theory anyways). I do like that the Honda 25 HP shares a platform with their 30 but the Yamaha 30 shares with the 40 so it's much heavier.

I was looking at that 25 HP comparison on Microskiff from 2010 or there abouts and all the motors seemed to perform the same. The one thing Suzuki had going for it was it had a much lower WOT RPM than the others - the power and speed to the boat was earlier in the RPM range which to me translates into helping reliability I would think since you don't have to rev it as much (about 400 rpm's less) to get to faster speeds. It had a WOT of around 5400, the others were around 5800. Not sure if this is gearing or not but was noticeable. But then they said they didn't offer tilt or trim on this motor so it'll be a heavy beast to pull up from the boat.

I drive a Toyota Tundra. The wife a Honda Pilot. My boat.....Merc 25 efi 4 stroke. Couldn't be happier!

Jeff

Remember all manufacturers are within 10% of the 25hp rating. So the Suzi is not creating anymore HP than the other manufacturers. They all keep a close eye on each other and so does the regulation dept. That being said apples to apples on the exact same boats comparing all the manufacturers 25hp models (in theory) the Merc should be capable of achieving the fastest top speed on a LIGHT setup. And the Evinrude Etec should be the fastest 25hp motor on a HEAVY setup. So if you run heavy and want top speed get an Etec, if you run light and want top speed get a Merc. As for engine longevity...... all the manufacturers nowadays make good motors so as long as they are maintained properly they should all run a very very long time. 400rpm less WOT of the Suzi is really nothing to go by with engine longevity, it is a very small rpm difference and there are too many variables beyond that that will determine and engines lifespan.

I really wish someone would do a comparison video of all the new 25's on the same boat and setups to show which motor does what with what setup because all I can do is look at the physics behind the motor design of each manufacturer and theorize which would do what #-o .......... Have I mentioned that I think you should get an Etec? :lol:

Johny..theres an 25 hp shootout at the microskiff site(the OP mentioned he already seen it).It has them all except the etec...only 4 strokes...

If I wanted to spend the money on a new outboard in that size range,pretty sure the Etec would win me over...

Get your self a Johnny Rude and have it rebuilt so it is like new! Those older motors are still the best and most economical to run

They're all pretty much the same weight nowdays. Even the heavy overpriced 2 smoke Etec. The yamaha is nothing new. It was introduced in 1997 and some changes were made in 2008, still exactly the same powerhead but now it has a lighter, smaller diameter flywheel, a bigger/better gear reduction starter, improvements to the electrical system, some small improvements to the foot (lower unit) and a different cylinder head, intake manifold and carb. Theres other differences too but those are the major differences. It is roughly 30-40 lb heavier than the 1997/8-2008 models. The NEW (2012-) F25s are available with tilt assist which is awesome. Interesting to get used to but basically you can tilt it with one finger. That is nice-and it's lighter than power tilt. Most of the other brands have power tilt only anyway-not trim-meaning you can't tilt it if you're running in forward gear at anything more than just off of idle.

The downside of the 2 cylinder counterbalanced powerhead is that it's not as smooth as a 3 cylinder. But it uses less fuel, it's simpler and is a proven design that Mercury/Mariner and Yamaha both have used for over a decade. As long as it's got oil in it and it hasn't been badly overheated, they're darn tough! Never been into a powerhead of an F25-never had to (have been in plenty of 2 stroke 25's though).

The newer F25's also run quieter and smoother than the older ones. I have an older one. Wish it were as smooth/quiet as the newer one. AND...the newer one seems to be a bit faster than mine is, even though it's heavier. Both have the same gearcase, same prop (exactly the same prop) and the 2012 will run about a half to one full mph faster than mine is. On the same boat, back to back test. Both are 15" electric start models. Only difference is that mine is old (2000) and it's got backup recoil start-which-by the way-doesn't come on any of the Yamaha 4 strokes that I know of (and never did on mine either...but a manual start model's starter fits right on with zero mods to anything). The newer ones can retrofit too but the cowling has to be changed which adds cost.

I picked up a used 99 model F25esh for resale a while back...listed it for $2200...and expected lowball offers. First guy to come look at it bought it, said it was to replace a Honda 25 that was on his 20' trout boat. He said he hated that honda-ran rougher, slower, more expensive. But I have never personally operated one. He called me the day after he bought it and said that Yamaha I sold him was absolutely perfect and exactly what he wanted.

I am leaning Yamaha right now if I was buying today. I WAS looking at the Etec today doing some research online and watching some You Tube Videos. Looks like a nice motor and the holeshot due to being a 2 stroke is very very attractive and awesome but let me ask E-tec proponents this. The selling point of a 2 stroke over a 4 stroke has ALWAYS been it's simplicity - less moving parts, less to go wrong, better torque & holeshot, lighter, etc. But the E-tec looks like it has A LOT of very high tech parts to it in order to make it burn as clean and as efficiently as it does. Does all this technology in order to make it more 4 stroke like, counteract it's 2 stroke benefits to some degree? I also looked on the E-tec owners group and yes, you obviously get a biased opinion in your mind because people only post when they have problems or things like that so I am realistic, I've been on various forums over the years enough to know that's how people are so problems get amplified. But the nature of a lot of the problems I was reading about was finicky stuff - sensor or electric type stuff - little component here, etc. Nothing to do with the balls or guts of the motor. Stuff that has to do with technology - the same technology Evinrude needs to take away the natural pitfalls or disadvantages of the 2 stroke motor, historically and give it comparable performance in some areas as the 4 strokes while still retaining the 2 stroke advantages if it's fair to say.

I'd say your right in your thinking(negatives) but the one big thing is that is still a 2 stroke(positive).Sure theres computer stuff that you won't be able to touch and it will most likely be dealer maintained but bottom line it's still a 2 stroke and will have less motor/moving parts.
2 stroke...normally quicker to plane,top ends probably around the same
cc's(577 Etec)...more then the 4 strokes I looked at(almost 100 more then the Yamaha 2 cyclinder 498cc)
weight...etec,probably still lighter then most 4 strokes
gear ratio...2.15 Etec...2.08 Yam/Honda...1.92 Merc(etec might be able to spin a bigger prop)
On a new one(Etec)...no break in period,no dealer service for 3 years/300hours;quiet;cool trolling feature;exceeds all"CARB" requirements;made in North America(Canadian owned)....but pretty pricey

Starting to sound like a dealer(I'm not) and the 4 strokes will most likely get the job done for you as well.Maybe you should look at dealer support in your area;might be better for one brand over another.All newer outboards are most likely good,and if you are thinking Merc,take a look at Tohatsu(less pricey),because if it's below a 40hp they make them(Nissan as well).

It been years since I been in a boat using a small 4 stroke(10?),they have probably come a long ways since then.At the time I found them gutless,slow to plane and no where near as good as a an older 2 stroke(which I still use).I just can't justify $5000 on a new outboard yet maybe when the emissions laws make me.

Well I've been doing some more personal brainwashing and these E-tecs have grown on me a little bit the past day. Still more research and gauking to go but I DID stop in on my lunch break at a well known reputable Evinrude Dealer to have a look at them and get a few quotes and the quotes were very, very surprising (as in, good surprising aka inexpensive) as far as what I thought I'd hear and the numbers that were actually given to me. I got a Yamaha quote hopefully coming tommorrow so I'll compare and contrast accordingly. The holeshot IS impressive. There are lots of videos on Youtube of these things planing within seconds. They also have a really interetsingly cool & beefy look to them. Very original.

I have daydreamed at these new 25hp (4 and 2 stroke) motors for a couple years now, reading and watching everything I can get my hands on. There is no doubt if I had the money I would get a Etec. There are NO drawbacks in my opinion to the 2 stroke Etec. In fact it has nothing but advantages over the 4 strokes in pretty much every category of performance. The warranty is second to none, power is better, fuel mileage as good or better than 4 strokes, lighter weight (by a few pounds) yet has a BIGGER displacement, no break in period, less moving parts.....etc. and the list can go on and on. And have I mentioned the motor looks awesome, best on the market. I am a little biased because I like the old OMC's but I have no problem saying OMC did not make the best motors from the mid 90's up until the Etec came out. Now I believe OMC/Evinrude/BRP are making the best motors again.

There is no replacement for displacement :mrgreen:

I got a quote for a 25 HP Yamaha that was $400 more than the etec but the Yamaha does have tilt assist which is a good feature to lift the motor up easier without having to fork out the cash or incur the weight penalty for power tilt.

I believe the power tilt option is only 15lbs extra on the Etec. Not really bad at all if you can afford it. It is worth it too when it comes to trimming your motor to get peak performance.

30 hp tohatsu.efi. 3 cyl.u will not beat the price. very small diiference in price between 25 and 30. merc, nissan a nd i believe some others are made by tohatsu. battery less ignition and they both retain pull start.

Brand new Etec 30's can be bought for the same price or less than the new Tohatsu....... just saying

Johny25 said:

Brand new Etec 30's can be bought for the same price or less than the new Tohatsu....... just saying

Click to expand...

Where??

Jeff

30hp Tohatsu 15" shaft, 182 lbs, Electric Start, Power trim and tilt $4,025

Just to give you guys an update - I have gotten a couple quotes in the past while. One is from an exceptional Evinrude Dealer in Vancouver, BC who has been an Evinrude Dealer for 40+ years and has an exceptional record of service & sales and a very good reputation amongst guys that get their work done there, the other is a Yamaha dealer whom I had do some work on my 20 HP 4 stroke up until I owned it a few years ago who is supposed to be a 5 star dealer but I didn't feel all warm and fuzzy when I was in there, I felt like I was in a dealership if it's fair to say, but they didn't screw up. I just didn't feel all warm and fuzzy, that's all. I've never dealt with the Evinrude/Johnson dealer before but they seem like a good shop from when I went in there and in a few threads I read on other boards I haven't heard one bad thing, on good to exceptional things. Only hiccup is the Evinrude dealer is noticeably farther away than the Yamaha. I would do most of the service things myself except the major stuff.

So here is what I got price wise and comparison wise.
ALL motors are Manual (rope) start and Long Shaft.
I was hoping to buy 2 motors - a 25 HP and the smallest single cylinder long shaft that each offers for back up/reserve/slower trolling power.

So Yamaha for comparison (Price, Weight)
Yamaha F25 - $4012 - 172 pounds
Yamaha F2.5 - $1023 - 40 pounds
Total - $5035 - 212 pounds

Evinrude (Price, Weight
Evinrude E-tec 25 - $3625 - 150 pounds
Evinrude 4 HP 4 stroke (made by Tohatsu) - 57 pounds
Total - $5085 - 207 pounds

You can see price and weight wise they are quite similar - almost negligeable difference.

Now down to the comparison

Between the 25 HP motors the Yamaha is a carbureted 4 stroke and the Evinrude is a high tech 2 stroke. The Yamaha being a 4 stroke has more moving parts, but the Evinrude being a high tech 2 stroke has less moving parts, but more technical electronic parts to get rid of the 2 stroke disadvantages and give it better fuel economy, quietness, etc. Both 25 HP motors have solid reviews on boattest.com as well found on youtube. I like the Evinrude dealer better despite being farther away (so far anyways, based on what I've heard). The Evinrude will have faster holeshot but both motors will have the same or similar top end and based on the comparison fairly similar fuel economy. The Yamaha F25 DOES have one feature that I like and that's the tilt assist in the event I would need to pull the motor up in the boat it supposedly makes it way easier to tilt up.

The smaller motors - Obviously the 4 HP evinrude has more power, BUT I don't think there will be any issue with the F2.5 moving the boat at a decent enough clip to troll or serve as auxiliary power should something happen to the main. I only picked the 4 HP Evinrude because they don't make the 3.5 in a long shaft. The Evinrude 4 stroke 4 HP is a rebadged Tohatsu motor - not sure if that is a bad or a good thing, however. I'm curious which motor would vibrate more but no experience to back that up. Noise again not enough experience to make a comparison. The 4 HP Evinrude does have F - N - R, where as the 2.5 Yamaha only has 2.5 only has forward and neutral but it does have 360 degree steering apparently. They would both probably troll right down if needed to very slow speeds.

Having both 4 strokes maintenance would be simpler as I could change all the oil and do most of the maintenance myself as far as oil changes, spark plugs, etc. On the Evinrude 4 stroke 4 HP I'd have no issue maintaining myself but if the E-tec ever needed work I'd have to default to the dealer just because it's such a high tech 2 stroke.

Now I'm not saying e-tec isn't reliable - I've heard some very good reports on it, but I feel MORE warm and fuzzy on the reliability of the Yamaha over the Evinrude set ups. I'm not saying Yamaha's don't fail or have problems because some do. It's just Yamaha has a strong reputation for reliable outboards. But, if something happened, as I mentioned above, I'd feel more warm and fuzz on taking it into the Evinrude dealer. Perhaps it's all in my head?

Does anyone know exactly where some of the above outboards are made?

It seems pretty close in my mind.

Go Yamaha or Honda...it will pay in the long run.BTW my 2 Hp is exellent for trolling duty.It maintains a good steady speed...afterall it a Honda =D> .
Dan
2010 Lund WC14 with 2010 Honda BF2 and a 2011 Honda BF25 (boat and motors purchased new).