56 Johnson 15 hp hard to start.

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acwd

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Albion, IL
As the title says. I have done everything I can think of. Checked the spark jumps a 1/4"+ gap, points at .020. Cleaned the carb twice. Tried different starting steps. Nothing seems to make it easier. It like 6 or 7 or sometimes even more pulls, hot or cold dont matter. Tank is pressured up pumped the primer every time to make sure that there is gas to the carb. I did notice that the exhaust cover gasket is leaking some and I will fix that this winter if i can find a gasket. Going to order a carb kit and new packing for the jets and see if that does any good. Any other ideas??

Thanks
Steve
P.S. It has new plugs also.
 
Check to make sure the choke blade is closing all the way. Old linkage and wear may be allowing the blade to stand open a little.
If you have a buddy around have him manually close it and see if you can tell a difference.
Those engines should start a lot faster than that.
 
acwd, I don't know if you have included this information in a past post, but I am just jumping on this post, so please indulge my questions.

Have you checked compression on both cylinders?
If so, what are the numbers? If you haven't the you can call local auto parts store and see if they will loan one for a deposit. Some auto part sellers do.

** If you have poor compression, it will definitely cause your motor run poorly or not at all.


Do you have the original coils or they new?? Can you post a picture of your ignition system??


Fuel delivery can be inhibited by the filter in the glass bowl below the carburetor bowl. Part number 63 in the diagram. Unscrew part 67 and remove the filter element. Even though I may look clean, the pores may be clogged with old varnished gas/oil mix. Soak it in half and half warm water and Pinesol for about an hour. Rinse and blow out with compressed air. You will be surprised of all the junk that will come out. Repeat as necessary.

Hopefully you should get better fuel delivery, because that is where your fuel is reaching your carburetor. Clogged up filter poor fuel delivery.


37674800010im.jpg



37674800011im.jpg
 
Ok here is what I checked. The choke seems closed all the way. Cant close it anymore with the lever on the side of the carb, with the choke knob pulled out. As for compression its 90 psi on both cylinders. The coils arent originals they dont appear to be very old. Look made from modern materials. As for the filter, the pic you posted isnt the same as mine. Mine the filter mounts on the side of the block so you can service it easier I guess. But anyway it was cleaned before I started using it. May just have to get a new one or a different filter. It has always started like this since I have had it which is only about half a year but only ran it a couple of times. It runs great once you get it started. I had a problem with it earlier thought the prop was wrong came to find out the plug had too long of reach and was hitting the top of the piston. Got different plugs with a short reach and fixed that problem.

Steve
 
- Steve, can you post the model number of your motor.

- How long have you had this motor or is it new to you??

- Has your motor been converted to fuel pump system or is it still the original dual hose with the pressure tank system??

I did notice that the exhaust cover gasket is leaking some and I will fix that this winter if i can find a gasket.

- Does it look like someone has removed the exhaust cover plate??


If someone has had the exhaust cover off before, there may have been some issues with the motor before. If the exhaust ports get clogged up with coke and carbon, then that can create a fuel deliver issue. The flow entering the crankcase/power head must equal the flow going out.

But, before going off on wild goose chases, please answer the above questions.


thanks,

David
 
Model FDE-10
Got it back in May or June. Got the pressurized tank and replaced the diaphragm and gasket because it leaked out the primer shaft. Put new line on it too. As for the exhaust cover it dont look like its been off in a while. Looks like its been rebuilt at one time or another because the gaskets have no paint on them.

Steve
 
https://www.marineengine.com/parts/vintage-evinrude-johnson/376749/catalog.html?/parts/vintage-evinrude-johnson/376749/37674900001.htm
There is mine

Steve
 
My brand new 9.9 Mercury 4 stroke was doing the same as your engine, I got rid of regular 10% ethanol gas and am now using 91 octaine no ethanol gas. The engine now starts on 1 maybe 2 pulls when cold and 1 pull every time when it is warmed up it has more power and runs a lot better.
 
Steve, I see you have an electric start....fancy for those days....lol Nice score


Steve, I would like to make a recommendation. There is a website that is dedicated to restoring antique and vintage outboard. It is called AOMCI (Antique Outboard Motor Club Inc). To join the site is free just like this one, but there are members there who are real mechanics and restorers from back in the day that know your motor like the back of their hand. Their guidance and knowledge is awesome. I have a member there for 3 yrs and have learned a lot. I enjoyed it so much I became a paid member. I not saying for you to do the same, because to post and ask questions is free.


Here is the website link and you can register there.


https://www.aomci.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl


If you copy and paste the information you provided in the quote below, it will get you off to a good start as far as information they need to help you out. Your going to be surprised of the expertise there. I have rebuilt many motors with there help. I have a 1955 15hp Fastwin Johnson. Great runner!!!

Model FDE-10
Got it back in May or June. Got the pressurized tank and replaced the diaphragm and gasket because it leaked out the primer shaft. Put new line on it too. As for the exhaust cover it dont look like its been off in a while. Looks like its been rebuilt at one time or another because the gaskets have no paint on them.

Ok here is what I checked. The choke seems closed all the way. Cant close it anymore with the lever on the side of the carb, with the choke knob pulled out. As for compression its 90 psi on both cylinders. The coils arent originals they dont appear to be very old. Look made from modern materials. As for the filter, it was cleaned before I started using it. May just have to get a new one or a different filter. It has always started like this since I have had it which is only about half a year but only ran it a couple of times. It runs great once you get it started. I had a problem with it earlier thought the prop was wrong came to find out the plug had too long of reach and was hitting the top of the piston. Got different plugs with a short reach and fixed that problem.

I have done everything I can think of. Checked the spark jumps a 1/4"+ gap, points at .020. Cleaned the carb twice. Tried different starting steps. Nothing seems to make it easier. It like 6 or 7 or sometimes even more pulls, hot or cold dont matter. Tank is pressured up pumped the primer every time to make sure that there is gas to the carb. I did notice that the exhaust cover gasket is leaking some and I will fix that this winter if i can find a gasket. Going to order a carb kit and new packing for the jets and see if that does any good. Any other ideas??


If you wish to stay here, I will be glad to help you.

David (cajuncook)
 
Okay apparently the choke is closing.
Lets see if it is a fuel delivery issue.
I take it you are running a minimum of 24:1 fuel oil ratio?
Get a squirt bottle and partly fill with the fuel/oil mix
With a cold engine, open the choke and the throttle blade and give the engine a couple of squirts right down the carb.
Close the throttle to your normal starting position. Choke on.
How many pulls to start? Any improvement?
 
I am using non ethanol gas I think its 89 octane. 24 to 1 oil mix. Yeah I wish the starter was on her it was gone when I bought it. Would like to have one for it but havent located one. Pappy I will try that this weekend as its going to be warm for a few days then turn off cold again. I will get back to you guys on this in a few days.

Steve
 
37674900012im.jpg



Make sure these are your beginning carburetor settings:

These are going to be the initial settings for the carburetor for starting purposes. Your will later fine tune the settings.

Facing the carburetor you will notice (top) slow speed/idle knob and the (bottom) high speed needle and knob

- Top needle is your slow idle needle. You will gently turn in (clockwise) until the needle is gently seated..please don't force. Once seated, you will turn out (counter clockwise) the slow idle needle 1 1/2 turns. Leave it there for the time being.

- Bottom needle is your high speed needle. You will gently turn in (clockwise) until the needle is gently seated..please don't force. Once seated, you will turn out (counter clockwise) the slow idle needle 1 turn. Leave it there for the time being.


(Carburetor Adjustments - Two Adjustable N/Vs)
(J. Reeves)

Initial settings are: Bottom high speed = seat gently (turn needle clockwise), then open 1 turn out(counter clockwise). Top slow speed = seat gently(turn needle clockwise), then open 1-1/2 turns out (counter clockwise.

Once you have adjusted the idle/slow speed needle and the high speed needles, then snug up/ tighten part numbers 83 and 89 with 7/16 open in wrench enough to feel resistance when you turn the needles, but not too much where it makes it very difficult to turn the needles by hand.

Setting the high and low needle valves properly:

NOTE: These settings should be done a large test barrel or on the boat in the water/lake!! It best to do these adjustment on the boat in the lake or on commercial size test tank. (You can damage your motor running it wide open in a small test barrel.)

(High Speed) Start engine (it will run pretty rough), shift into forward gear, take up to full throttle. In segments of 1/8 turn in (clockwise), waiting for the engine to respond between turns, start turning in the bottom high speed needle valve. You'll reach a point whereas the engine will either start to die out or spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out (counter clockwise) the needle valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest setting.

(Low Speed) Slow the engine down to where it just stays running. Shift into neutral. Again in segments of 1/8 turn in (clockwise), start to turn the top needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running. Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back. Again, at that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn (counter clockwise). Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

When you have finished the above adjustments, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.
 
I know its been awhile but things got warm and got the motor out today. I squirted some gas mix in the carb and pulled the choke. Second pull it hit then nothing. So I pulled the carb off and cleaned it. Put it all back together and adjusted the low and high speed jets per instructions. it wouldnt hit at all. Opened both of them up some and tried it again. Finally got it to hit. High speed is like 2 rounds out from seat and the low speed is way out like 5 or 6 rounds. I think the problem lies in the top of the carb where the low speed jet feeds into the throat. Theres a plug on top and I think it comes in a carb kit. Is this whats making it a PIA to start? Carb kit will be ordered and soaked with the plugs removed. Just wanting to make sure if this is all I might need when ordering parts.

Steve
 
Very well could be the issue.
Also sounds like a missing nozzle well gasket.

When removing that plug....................
Be careful !!
Drill a 1/8" hole in the center of the plug being careful not to let the drill bit hit the calibration pocket when the bit goes through the plug.
Install a small punch and pry out the plug.
Soak the carburetor. Hope you have removed the packings out of the carb at this point as well.
Run a piece of copper wire through all passages.
When installing the plug I place the carb body on a vice with the jaws open far enough to fit around the float hanger castings. This allows the gasket surface to sit flat on the vice.
Place the new plug in the hole and take a small socket that will fit dead center in the plug and leave a wide margin around the socket. A flat punch will do as well as a substitute. Gently tap it into place enough to where you are sure the sides have expanded and sealed. If in doubt its always accepted to smear a sealer around the edge if you want to after installation.
 
Like you mentioned and know those needles (especially the low) seem to be way too far out.

Definitely put a dab of sealer on the plug as Pappy mentioned.
 
I found two things that ruin slow speed running on the FD10. Nothing is slower than cranking speed.

(1) Coils. The coils need to be just inside the flywheel. If they are pushed back, they wont fire at low RPM. OMC has/had a tool for this. It's a steel ring that fits snug on the plate. The coils are pushed out against the ring and the screws tightened. That puts em right at the passing magnet.

(2) Crankshaft seals. The crankcase is under highest vacuum at slow speeds when drawing mix from the closed carb. If the crank seal next to one cylinder is leaking, the mix gets lean for that cylinder. You can compensate with the slow speed mix adjustment except it over-richens the 'good' cylinder. There goes idle quality. If the seal gets worse, the cylinder will pop back or sneeze. If both seals go bad you can pull till you're blue in the face and it won't fire. Pappy's squirt bottle is a good indicator here, according to your results. Replacing old crank seals is almost a requirement on old motors.

If your FD10 is tight, not leaking with good compression, it should be able to idle down to practically nothing. They will start 1 pull when all is right. Johnson built their reputation on reliability. It's 58 years old...after all.

Here's a video of mine. This is how it ran before the crank seal(s) started leaking. Now it needs a new set of seals.
https://www.dropshots.com/boat2fast#albums/Running Videos/2010-07-26/13:09:04
Use guest password: twist'er
 
I pulled the plug on the top of the carb today and its clean in there. So is the top seal and bottom seal the same? I cant find the bottom seal listed. They arent that high so what will it hurt?

Steve
 
Ok replaced the bottom seal on the crankcase. It wasnt in there right. Its worse than ever on starting. I have great spark it jumps a 3/8+ of a inch. So I did some experimenting. I did get it running finally. I can adjust both high and low speed jets in the start position on the grip. they both change the way it runs. Normal? So I shut it off and bled the pressure off the tank and let it sit for over 2 hours. Can back tightened the cap on the tank pulled the choke and fired right off. I think its flooding itself setting with pressure on the tank. I put a carb kit in it. Set the float level as in the book. I give up!

Steve
 
If the carb is flooding from tank pressure the fuel will be visible exiting the front of the carburetor. Are you seeing this?
Yes, both needles are capable of changing low speed running. The low speed system is supplied through the high speed system so if the high speed needle sufficiently restricts the passage the low speed will be affected.
BTW - The nozzle well gasket is #58 on the parts diagram. That has to be in there.
You said you got a kit.......who's kit and what all was in it?
 

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