The difference between All-Wheel drive & 4 Wheel drive

[jethro]

My last 5 vehicles have been all brand new, I'm used to depreciation. But that's the thing about domestic vehicles over the imports, I was able to buy a truck that stickers for $52k for $37k. On a Toyota you are doing well if you can get it for invoice or even $300 above. In my mind that basically negates any depreciation when you can get such a huge buying incentive. I'm not used to that since my previous vehicles were all Toyotas.

How come you can't get car seats in a 4 Runner? I would think that would be a perfect family vehicle.

 

[onthewater102]

I'm too much of a goon - I have the driver's seat so far back there's no room behind me. The FJ cruiser would have been my 1st choice but that's even skinnier back there. The Highlander has a lot more 1st row seat legroom.

I don't buy anything new, hence the appeal of this site for garnering info and ideas on redoing the boat. ~60k miles with good maintenance records is the sweet-spot for me buying vehicles. Usually 50% or more of the original value has depreciated away but they still have a lot of useful life left in them and won't decline in value out of sycnh with the remainder of their useful lives.

 

[LDUBS]

I'm too much of a goon - I have the driver's seat so far back there's no room behind me. The FJ cruiser would have been my 1st choice but that's even skinnier back there. The Highlander has a lot more 1st row seat legroom.

I don't buy anything new, hence the appeal of this site for garnering info and ideas on redoing the boat. ~60k miles with good maintenance records is the sweet-spot for me buying vehicles. Usually 50% or more of the original value has depreciated away but they still have a lot of useful life left in them and won't decline in value out of sycnh with the remainder of their useful lives.

Just curious. Do you look at "certified" pre-owned off a dealer or rental car company lot, or do you buy from private parties? Reason I ask is my middle son is going to be looking for a new to him vehicle. He bought his current one off a dealers lot.

 

[LDUBS]

My last 5 vehicles have been all brand new, I'm used to depreciation. But that's the thing about domestic vehicles over the imports, I was able to buy a truck that stickers for $52k for $37k. On a Toyota you are doing well if you can get it for invoice or even $300 above. In my mind that basically negates any depreciation when you can get such a huge buying incentive. I'm not used to that since my previous vehicles were all Toyotas.

How come you can't get car seats in a 4 Runner? I would think that would be a perfect family vehicle.

Jethro, I just did something similar to what you describe, namely buying a new vehicle at $20K below sticker. I'm not naive enough to think anyone actually pays that MSRP but compared to what I paid 12 years ago, I felt OK about the price.

 

[bcbouy]

i always look for lease return trucks.my last 2 trucks were fantastic deals with all the service records and extended warranties.my 03 ford was 2 years old and less than 30k kilometers and retailed for 45k,i got it for 22.5k and my 12 ram was 2 yrs old and under 20k kilometers for 33k.it retailed for north of 50k.

 

[richg99]

For quite a number of years, our only vehicle purchases were from Avon; Enterprise, etc. The purchases were cars and vans, no trucks. We were very pleased and might still be doing it today except for one fact.

It seemed, at least at the time, that none of the Rental Sellers in the Houston area had any vans that had dual air conditioning for sale. That was a killer. If you've ever lived where it is Hot and Humid most of the time, putting kids or passengers in the back of a mid-sized van without rear A/C might be considered Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

I always felt we got good deals. We often did not have trade-ins, as those cars went to the kids. I have no idea how the Rental guys handle trade-ins. At least these days, you can sell the old vehicle directly or to CarMax. No internet was available back then.

 

[onthewater102]

Just curious. Do you look at "certified" pre-owned off a dealer or rental car company lot, or do you buy from private parties? Reason I ask is my middle son is going to be looking for a new to him vehicle. He bought his current one off a dealers lot.

I hate to give such a wishy-washy response, but it depends. How much more is a dealer getting for the "certified" vehicle vs. what you would pay getting it directly from a private 3rd party? Is that worth the cost of the repairs that you expect to be made by a dealer to a used vehicle before they put something up for sale as well as the value of any warranty the vehicle comes with?

Around here the dealers I've looked into do, at best, a half-assed job of reviewing a vehicle for damage and wear items that are required by law to be replaced. Some I've been able to negotiate with and make requests that the price is conditional upon certain items being replaced, but for the most part I see no extra value in buying through a dealer. To me, it's really a liability, because what might look shiny and new is really just the cheapest crap Chinese junk that will break again in 3 months.

What I do to make things simple is I look at the tires on vehicles at a dealership - it's a good litmus test of the quality of the dealer. Find some used cars wearing brand new tires, then lookup the tires online that they're putting on the cars. If they're the cheapest junk tires available then you can expect the same in any of the other parts selection made by that dealer and I'd just walk away from them entirely.

 

[LDUBS]

Just curious. Do you look at "certified" pre-owned off a dealer or rental car company lot, or do you buy from private parties? Reason I ask is my middle son is going to be looking for a new to him vehicle. He bought his current one off a dealers lot.

I hate to give such a wishy-washy . . .

Not wishy-washy at all. Pretty good rundown on the process you use. Thx.

 

[LDUBS]

Kinda sorta almost related:

I watched a show on the History Channel called "Born Tough - Inside the Ford Factory". It was about building aluminum body F150's in Dearborn. Very interesting, especially the part about replacing traditional welding with glue bonding and rivets. Worth a watch if you have time and can access old episodes.

 

[onthewater102]

I've got it in the back of my mind to watch those aluminum vehicles age here in CT and see what effect the dissimilar metals used throughout a vehicle experience when subjected to road salt have on one another over time.

 

[LDUBS]

I'll tack on a little nostalgia. I was looking at some old hauler photos that included a model by international trucks. Reminded me of the International Travelalls. These were pretty common in my neck of the woods back in the 60's/70's. I guess these might be among the first SUVs. Of course, no-one back then knew what an SUV was.

Anyway, sorry for the hi-jack, thread drift, or whatever you call it.

 

[jethro]

That's awesome! I had a Scout when I was in high school. I don't have any pics of it but it was similar to this but was all beat up and dented and bad faded paint and rusty wheels!

 

[LDUBS]

Scout's are awesome. I bet you wish you still had it.

 

[handyandy]

Suffered through a family of GM/Chevy drivers growing up maintaining everything myself. Never again. The component parts they use are trash. They wrap a coil of wire around the turns in the non-stainless brake lines which always results in them blowing brakes anywhere after 100k miles, fuel lines have the same issues. Automatic transmissions don't last much longer than that. Cheap sensors throughout constantly have to be replaced. Fuel pressure regulators fail and are a nuisance to get to.

4x4 models with the push button in-cab engagement use a vacuum actuator that has a vacuum hose routed too close to the exhaust so they tend to develop pinhole vacuum leaks that don't allow the transfer case to fully engage and you end up chewing the gears before the actuator failure is bad enough to throw a code. Complete junk.

Those companies failed for a reason and should have been allowed to die. That is the way of capitalism, you cheap out your product to the point that it's utter trash and your business dies and the competitor with the better product replaces you. The demand doesn't go away. Plain and simple.

The domestic auto industry in this country (perhaps with to the exclusion of Ford) is just another welfare institution.


Switched to a BMW X5 and haven't looked back. Would have gone with a Toyota but I couldn't justify the extra $$$ at the time.

I hate euro vehicles when you have to work on them I find them much more of a pain than the jap vehicles or us ones. Maybe it's just me but parts are always high dollar it seems compared to other companies. The vacuum line 4x4 stuff was crap of the 90's dodge had it too, and it sucked as well. My burb push button stuff knock on wood is still going strong at 230k, I didn't have to rebuild it's trans till 207000 miles I felt that is pretty good lifespan out of an automatic that has seen it's fair share of towing. I haven't come across many vehicles in states that dump salt in the winter that haven't had brake lines replaced by 150k miles or so. Indiana is pretty bad about dumping way more salt brine, and rock salt on the roads than they need too seems any older vehicles or ones with some miles need brake lines. Heck that's how I got my commuter subaru forester for dirt cheap needed a wheel bearing, and some brake lines. It had 176k when I got it, my burb needed it's first brake line around 170k. I don't think it matters what manufacturer you get in salty road states brake lines are going to be prone to rust and replacement. I'm not a big fan of any of the 90's trucks other than dodges with cummins, but the cummins is the only thing that makes them worth a darn. I know a lot of guys with 2000-2007 with gm trucks with the 5.3 with lots of miles that's why I got my suburban it was cheaper than it's 1/2 crew cab or xcab truck brethren, but could tow just as much.

 

[onthewater102]

I understand and agree that any vehicle over time regularly exposed to ice treated roads will develop corrosion issues, my problem with GM is that the wrap the bends in the lines with a coil of wire, looks much like a spring, which serves to accumulate all that road gunk and concentrate it on the lines (brake & fuel) resulting in accelerated wear at those points.

Beyond that, I forgot another major gripe in that the rubber they use for the flexible connections between the hard lines on the vehicle and the calipers fails regularly, flaking internally creating, in effect, a 1-way valve that causes calipers to hang up and burn out the brakes. I'm sure it probably happens on other vehicles on occasion, but I've wracked up close to 300,000 miles on various imported vehicles without an instance of this issue, while EVERY SINGLE GM I owned (accumulating at least the same mileage, likely more) had this issue with at least one of the brakes, the Blazer had it on all but one wheel that I could tell.


For anyone not familiar with it, the rubber hose degradation issue is usually progressive, and an easy one to detect with an infrared thermometer before it gets so bad that it wrecks your rotors/calipers - just check the temperature of your rotors after driving the vehicle where you do a decent amount of braking. If you've got a fairly even distribution of weight in the vehicle then the temperature of the brake rotors should be roughly the same. If you're seeing differences in temperature ~5% or more chances are you've got the issue starting. The hotter rotor is the one that's hanging up.

 

[handyandy]

I understand and agree that any vehicle over time regularly exposed to ice treated roads will develop corrosion issues, my problem with GM is that the wrap the bends in the lines with a coil of wire, looks much like a spring, which serves to accumulate all that road gunk and concentrate it on the lines (brake & fuel) resulting in accelerated wear at those points.

Beyond that, I forgot another major gripe in that the rubber they use for the flexible connections between the hard lines on the vehicle and the calipers fails regularly, flaking internally creating, in effect, a 1-way valve that causes calipers to hang up and burn out the brakes. I'm sure it probably happens on other vehicles on occasion, but I've wracked up close to 300,000 miles on various imported vehicles without an instance of this issue, while EVERY SINGLE GM I owned (accumulating at least the same mileage, likely more) had this issue with at least one of the brakes, the Blazer had it on all but one wheel that I could tell.


For anyone not familiar with it, the rubber hose degradation issue is usually progressive, and an easy one to detect with an infrared thermometer before it gets so bad that it wrecks your rotors/calipers - just check the temperature of your rotors after driving the vehicle where you do a decent amount of braking. If you've got a fairly even distribution of weight in the vehicle then the temperature of the brake rotors should be roughly the same. If you're seeing differences in temperature ~5% or more chances are you've got the issue starting. The hotter rotor is the one that's hanging up.

What year blazer did you have, those s10 blazers were far from great I'll agree. The 4.3 didn't get much better gas mileage than a half ton suv like the tahoe, but yet it couldn't tow nearly as much. Then again how bad were they I still see tons of the pos things going down the roads these days, usually held together by what appears to be hopes and dreams most the time now. I guess I shouldn't have said the 90's were that bad the ford f-250/350 was pretty good once they started offering the 7.3 powerstroke in 94. I'm not big ford guy but I wouldn't mind having a crew cab or xcab f250/350 with a powerstroke and 5 speed manual from 94-97. I like that body style, the 5 speed they used was pretty robust, and the old 7.3 powerstroke are darn good engines. I know what your talking about with the coiled wire around the brake lines it's not just gm I've seen it on many other vehicles, but you are right it's just a area to hold crud and cause corrosion. I've done so many brake lines on various vehicles I couldn't really begin to say that any one make has better lines or not. Maybe some high end cars come with stainless stuff idk most of my vehicles have been older ones that I got cheap needing work. Most the ones are work on are other friends vehicles with higher miles they're trying to keep it going. Doesn't seem to matter what vehicle it is by 200k most have needed a brake line, probably due for ball joints, wheel bearings or some other wear items. My biggest gripe with vehicles now is I'm partial to manuals, and I hate that you can't hardly find any new trucks offered with a manual still and four wheel drive. The new automatics are much better, but I imagine that around 200k will still be the average life of an auto used in something to tow or haul regularly. I've seen plenty go longer on original auto transmissions but it's usually cars or trucks that have had an easy life. I'm not looking forward to what it's like to rebuild a 8 or 10 speed auto. Just give me a real gear box the extra pedal I'll throw a new clutch in and go.

 

[eshaw]

Disclaimer: This doesn't apply to any person in particular so don't try to hand me my head! It's not a personal thing, just observations.

I listen to people complain about their vehicles not lasting and it just kills me. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the vehicles on the road now days don't or didn't get the required maintenance that is prescribed for them. To each there own. You can also say that road salt eats them up and to a point this is a true statement but how many people meticulously wash their vehicles including the underside? A lot of the rust problems are brought on from neglect, and I agree that some of the styling on a vehicle can promote it. True, some problems are from using cheaper components with shorter lives but they do this for a reason, people don't spend the money on the manufacturers products because they charge too much. This is how they keep prices down plain and simple. I don't like it and neither do you but who wants to pay for the difference in price when they use quality components? The manufacturers have to stay competitive somehow or they lose customer base and eventually will fold if they can't make a profit. This is why the government bailed out almost all the manufacturers and to save jobs. That would have left you at the mercy of the off shore manufacturers and a lot of them are subsidized by their countries for component manufacturing or the end product. There are also a lot of people that don't know how to use what they have correctly and in doing so when it fails prematurely place the blame on the manufacturer. This is my take on vehicles. People get what they pay for and when they buy a cheaper model to save money are they really saving money in the long run? I think a lot of the problem is consumers buy but rarely factor in what it costs to maintain a vehicle and the vehicle gets neglected. We all figure insurance, tags and gas but most don't figure in what the associated costs are that go into owning a vehicle. I could go on and on. (Dear god I hope he doesn't!) I just don't think it's fair to place all the blame on the manufacturing community is all.

 

[New River Rat]

eshaw, I think you've nailed it. Many need to read AND understand what you've typed. I remember hearing back in the '70's after the laughter died down about the datsuns and 'yotas and how the [strike]jap[/strike]crap looked like toys. Then it seems everyone jumped on the " 'yotas last forever" bandwagon. Huh? My GMs do as well, because of the required maintenance. As I have stated,ad nauseam, my THREE new small block Chevrolet's since 1984 have NEVER had an internal issue, nor seen the light of day. In my not so humble opinion, the purchase of an American built vehicle from an American company is as patriotic as the "Pledge of Allegiance" can allow. I keep hearing how we support our troops, our first responders, our folks that serve and protect. I think we can take that a bit further and support as "American" (you know, the Republic mention in pledging allegiance) as we can.

disclaimer: Just my opinion, I may be wrong.......

 

[LDUBS]

In my not so humble opinion, the purchase of an American built vehicle from an American company is as patriotic as the "Pledge of Allegiance" can allow. I keep hearing how we support our troops, our first responders, our folks that serve and protect. I think we can take that a bit further and support as "American" (you know, the Republic mention in pledging allegiance) as we can.

disclaimer: Just my opinion, I may be wrong.......

Shoot, I certainly agree, except I would support all built in America by American workers.

 

[jtsull]

All wheel drive; example AWD jeeps and my AWD infiniti. No way to take them out of "all-wheel-drive" and run in ONLY two wheel drive. They are in two wheel drive with the other two activating (via a hydraulic coupling) when slippage happens.

4 wheel drive; example Chevy Silverado and I imagine other pick ups, there is a switch to run in auto (similar to all wheel drive), two wheel drive, and 4 wheel drive Hi or LO (locked).

At least that's my thoughts..