Ail
Well-known member
That dowel jig is mighty handy, and that looks like a solid joint. Well done. Being able to improvise and still get to where you want is necessity for a true DIY craftsman. :mrgreen:
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SaltyGhost
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It's coming along great. I love boats that have the windshield all the way in the front. Very few new boats have this design which is a shame. It's real nice when the temp drops and you still want to go boating. You won't freeze to death from the wind when going fast.
:idea: I would recommend using a 2-part marine epoxy to glue-up wood for a boat. That titebond III wood glue says its waterproof but it's not really made for marine environments. It's not submersible, which may be OK, but if your boat gets a bunch of water in it for any length of time the glue will fail. I like the 5-minute stuff because it sets-up quick and is usable in less than an hour. You can but it at any decent hardware store.
:idea: I would recommend using a 2-part marine epoxy to glue-up wood for a boat. That titebond III wood glue says its waterproof but it's not really made for marine environments. It's not submersible, which may be OK, but if your boat gets a bunch of water in it for any length of time the glue will fail. I like the 5-minute stuff because it sets-up quick and is usable in less than an hour. You can but it at any decent hardware store.
[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363400#p363400 said:
Hopefully the Titebond will be ok. I'm planning to use 2-part resin to coat the flooring and hope it will keep water out but you can never be sure I guess. If some future owner likes to boat in the rain or stores it uncovered then all my work will be for nothing anyway.
One thing that concerns me about the 2-part epoxy glue is the fast setup time. It can sometimes take me more than 5 minutes and even up to 10 before I have all the clamps and various braces in place. I have used epoxy before where the joints come together quickly but in this case thought I needed a little more time. I still have a lot of wood joints to do so I will look into the epoxy question more carefully. If I can find something with a slower setup time that may be the ticket. Thanks for the heads up.
jasper60103
Well-known member
Bobberboy,
I enjoy reading your threads and the meticulous care to every detail. This was demonstrated in your two prior builds as well. Don't ever feel its TMI for this forum. Keep up the great work! =D>
jasper
I enjoy reading your threads and the meticulous care to every detail. This was demonstrated in your two prior builds as well. Don't ever feel its TMI for this forum. Keep up the great work! =D>
jasper
borntofish
Active member
THANKS FOR THEE GREAT EDUCATION!! I'm enjoying this very much. Not "TMI".
Part of learning is making mistakes and it's good to be up front about them. Sometimes they make better reading than the successes too.
So I glued the other half of the floor on and did what comes naturally to a woodworker and got the saw out. I'll review the thinking:
Got the rest of the plywood glued together and prepared to transfer the template to it. The template was made on top of the aluminum framing and so represented the bottom of the plywood. So, turned the plywood upside down and put the template on it upside down and traced around it. Mind you, I made the cardboard template to within 1/8" of the boat's interior profile. Understanding that the sides of the boat flare out and away from where the template I set my saber saw at an angle and cut so the top face of the plywood would be wider than the bottom and thus taking into account the different profile of the interior at the level of the framing versus 3/4" above the framing. I cut, I turned it over, I placed it in the boat and it didn't fit. Not even close. It was as if I had my eyes closed or had made the template for some other boat or I had used my good friend the Auto-beaver (patent pending) to do the cutting. Dang it anyway.
I did a lot of looking, a lot of taking it out and cutting and adjusting of angles but it just never fit right. I put it aside for a day and went back and decided to take a different tack. All the things I did made sense, I think.
There are a couple of things I didn't think through completely and they caused problems. First of all were the angles of the sides. In a jon boat, the angle of the sides from front to back is relatively straight compared to a V-bottom which has a much more distinct curve to it. The sides of the jon boat go out from bottom to top at a relatively consistent angle compared to those of a V-bottom boat. The geometry of the jon is simpler, easier to understand and predict whereas the V-bottom boat's curve is compound, changing as it goes up and forward. At the back end of the plywood the V-bottom's sides are almost 90° to that of the floor. At a foot or so forward of that, the sides are somewhere 15° off and by the time you get to the front the angle is probably somewhere around 60° off. The other problem is the thing was too big to manage and too big to be able to accurately see underneath where it fit and didn't fit.
I don't know how I went stupid and I don't still know what went wrong. I know guys put decks in V-bottom boats all the time and there are about a thousand threads on this site to prove it. So anyway, I went back and cut those carefully made joints apart. I'm now going to fit each side first, making the space between them parallel and after I've made them fit correctly I will rejoin each half. But not until I've got a day or two of fishing in.
So I glued the other half of the floor on and did what comes naturally to a woodworker and got the saw out. I'll review the thinking:
Got the rest of the plywood glued together and prepared to transfer the template to it. The template was made on top of the aluminum framing and so represented the bottom of the plywood. So, turned the plywood upside down and put the template on it upside down and traced around it. Mind you, I made the cardboard template to within 1/8" of the boat's interior profile. Understanding that the sides of the boat flare out and away from where the template I set my saber saw at an angle and cut so the top face of the plywood would be wider than the bottom and thus taking into account the different profile of the interior at the level of the framing versus 3/4" above the framing. I cut, I turned it over, I placed it in the boat and it didn't fit. Not even close. It was as if I had my eyes closed or had made the template for some other boat or I had used my good friend the Auto-beaver (patent pending) to do the cutting. Dang it anyway.
I did a lot of looking, a lot of taking it out and cutting and adjusting of angles but it just never fit right. I put it aside for a day and went back and decided to take a different tack. All the things I did made sense, I think.
There are a couple of things I didn't think through completely and they caused problems. First of all were the angles of the sides. In a jon boat, the angle of the sides from front to back is relatively straight compared to a V-bottom which has a much more distinct curve to it. The sides of the jon boat go out from bottom to top at a relatively consistent angle compared to those of a V-bottom boat. The geometry of the jon is simpler, easier to understand and predict whereas the V-bottom boat's curve is compound, changing as it goes up and forward. At the back end of the plywood the V-bottom's sides are almost 90° to that of the floor. At a foot or so forward of that, the sides are somewhere 15° off and by the time you get to the front the angle is probably somewhere around 60° off. The other problem is the thing was too big to manage and too big to be able to accurately see underneath where it fit and didn't fit.
I don't know how I went stupid and I don't still know what went wrong. I know guys put decks in V-bottom boats all the time and there are about a thousand threads on this site to prove it. So anyway, I went back and cut those carefully made joints apart. I'm now going to fit each side first, making the space between them parallel and after I've made them fit correctly I will rejoin each half. But not until I've got a day or two of fishing in.
Ail
Well-known member
[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363591#p363591 said:bobberboy » 17 Aug 2014, 18:59[/url]"]Part of learning is making mistakes and it's good to be up front about them. Sometimes they make better reading than the successes too.
So I glued the other half of the floor on and did what comes naturally to a woodworker and got the saw out. I'll review the thinking:
Got the rest of the plywood glued together and prepared to transfer the template to it. The template was made on top of the aluminum framing and so represented the bottom of the plywood. So, turned the plywood upside down and put the template on it upside down and traced around it. Mind you, I made the cardboard template to within 1/8" of the boat's interior profile. Understanding that the sides of the boat flare out and away from where the template I set my saber saw at an angle and cut so the top face of the plywood would be wider than the bottom and thus taking into account the different profile of the interior at the level of the framing versus 3/4" above the framing. I cut, I turned it over, I placed it in the boat and it didn't fit. Not even close. It was as if I had my eyes closed or had made the template for some other boat or I had used my good friend the Auto-beaver (patent pending) to do the cutting. Dang it anyway.
I did a lot of looking, a lot of taking it out and cutting and adjusting of angles but it just never fit right. I put it aside for a day and went back and decided to take a different tack. All the things I did made sense, I think.
There are a couple of things I didn't think through completely and they caused problems. First of all were the angles of the sides. In a jon boat, the angle of the sides from front to back is relatively straight compared to a V-bottom which has a much more distinct curve to it. The sides of the jon boat go out from bottom to top at a relatively consistent angle compared to those of a V-bottom boat. The geometry of the jon is simpler, easier to understand and predict whereas the V-bottom boat's curve is compound, changing as it goes up and forward. At the back end of the plywood the V-bottom's sides are almost 90° to that of the floor. At a foot or so forward of that, the sides are somewhere 15° off and by the time you get to the front the angle is probably somewhere around 60° off. The other problem is the thing was too big to manage and too big to be able to accurately see underneath where it fit and didn't fit.
I don't know how I went stupid and I don't still know what went wrong. I know guys put decks in V-bottom boats all the time and there are about a thousand threads on this site to prove it. So anyway, I went back and cut those carefully made joints apart. I'm now going to fit each side first, making the space between them parallel and after I've made them fit correctly I will rejoin each half. But not until I've got a day or two of fishing in.
Not that I like to hear about anyone failing, as I only hope for the greatest of successes for all of my fellow boat builders and re-modelers on the web, but I am glad to see I am not the only one making mistakes this weekend. It makes me feel a little better I guess. It happens to the best of us. A few days of fishing should get you right back where you left off. It's good to take a step back, or walk away altogether sometimes.
Enjoy the angling!
The same thing happened to me when I did the decking on my 14' V bottom StarCraft. Cardboard template, double check it. Cut the cardboard, laid it on the plywood cut it 1/4 " less to be sure.....nada, nope it was still too big. Never figured out why just keep cutting a little off at a time till it did fit.
At least you had some idea of why.....
Ed
At least you had some idea of why.....
Ed
Y_J
Well-known member
OK. Now ya'll starting to scare me here... I'm just now getting into the process of planning the framing for under the floor and decks on my 12' V bottom. Then will come the cardboard template. Giving me a minds eye picture of what I have to look forward to... Ugggg.[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363603#p363603 said:
Kismet
Well-known member
Rule of Life, number 7129:
"Things go wonky, by the very nature of doing things."
[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363617#p363617 said:
People are doing this all the time so don't stress about it. Mine went wrong (I believe) because I was so focused on making the floor as a single piece I didn't see how difficult it would be to handle it and work with it. Another approach would be to finish the floor/deck framing and then cut strips of whatever thickness of material you intend to use for the surface, put the strips on the framing and work the cardboard template from there. In this way you'd be working from the top side of the floor/deck with your template. Wen you cut the shape you'd angle the cut in rather than out as you'd need to do if you were working from the bottom. If the angle wasn't right it will never show from above and doesn't matter from below. I may also have had too high expectations for what constitutes a "close enough" fit. Carpet will fill a 1/4" gap if you wrap the edge. I had some gaps that were considerably bigger - not big enough to lose your two year-old through but too big to be good enough. It wasn't the "cut it twice and it was still too short" problem either which is why I was so surprised at the results. But look, it's a piece of plywood and not something really important. With some more time I can still make it work and with the strip of plywood I so painstakingly added to the floor I'll make the strips to put on the framing and rework my template to fit the top of the floor. It's no biggie in the scheme of things.
Y_J
Well-known member
Right on.. I expect to make some mistakes here and there, as this is my first rebuild. And to make things worse this boat is beat up bad enough as it is. LOL So I'm trying to make a decent looking boat out of a pile of camel dung. Leave it to me to opt for the downtrodden.
[url=https://www.tinboats.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=363724#p363724 said:
A lot of people here are doing as you are. Better to make something out of nothing than the other way around...
It's a measure of my frustration that I was reduced to taking my own advice re the floor. As I suggested to Y_J, I cut strips of the 3/4 plywood I'm using for the floor, tied them to the top of the framing and remade my cardboard templates from there. I also was working with the two sides separately, fitting each one individually which was much easier. I remade the template, recut the plywood, fit it in the boat, scribed it against the sides and with one more minor trim was done. So simple. Working from above is the ticket. The carpet will fill the gap nicely and Bob's your uncle. The fit isn't Armani but good enough to wear to church.
The original piece in the middle was 8" and it's now 9-1/2". Tomorrow I'll do that bit all over again. Once the floor's finished some interesting work can begin on creating the cockpits, seats etc.
The original piece in the middle was 8" and it's now 9-1/2". Tomorrow I'll do that bit all over again. Once the floor's finished some interesting work can begin on creating the cockpits, seats etc.
Kismet
Well-known member
"reduced to following your own advice."....... :lol: #-o :lol:
ah, the indignity of it all.
nice work.
ah, the indignity of it all.
nice work.
Floor's in with a coat of resin.
Finally got the transom back in. I've been avoiding it. First, I didn't want to drill holes into it. After all of the work and all the concern with making it as waterproof as possible it was hard to start drilling holes into it. Also I didn't want to try out the air hammer I bought and ruin all the work I did. I did some practicing with the air hammer and determined I wasn't ready for the pro rivet circuit.
I had to do things a little out of order. Once I replace the splash-well I won't have easy access to the area under it so I needed to some things on the transom first. Also, some of the rivets go through the splash-well so I had to do a partial installation and then will finish it once I've got the splash-well ready to go.
The transom wasn't an exact fit and there was a gap all around the edges between it and the hull. I wanted to fill that to make a solid connection and to eliminate areas where water can collect. In order to do so I had to get the transom in place and keep it there until I was ready for the rivets. I decided to use waterproof construction adhesive and glue the transom in place. I put a heavy bead on the inside corner where the transom and hull meet. I also put in a 2" strip of marine epoxy along the top of the transom that would glue it to the aluminum and help keep water from creeping in from the top. Whether this proves to be a good idea remains to be seen. The aluminum of the hull is much more subject to expansion and contraction than the wood of the transom and that may crack the aluminum free from the wood. I don't know what happened to my pics of this step. They seem to have disappeared. Anyway, I clamped along the top of the transom and drove wedges between the bottom inside and the stringers to hold it in place until the glues had cured. I left a trough approximately 3/8" deep on the inside edge to be able to finish the joint once the glues cured. To control the mess I taped off the bottom and sides of the boat and used a marine epoxy putty to fill the gap minus where the mahogany is. Because the mahogany will be visible I just used an exterior caulk that color matched the mahogany.
Next I taped off and painted the bottom of the transom with the bed liner. The joint between boat and transom is pretty well sealed now.
At this point I had to decide about the rivets and I decided not to use them. I was pretty horrified by my practice attempts and didn't want to go public with my bad work and I was concerned that the hammering of the air hammer would shake loose the joint I had so carefully tried to create between the transom and hull. So, after having bought the whole riveting setup I went out for SS bolts. I used 1/4-20 SS carriage bolts with SS washers and SS stop nuts. I used 3M 5200 sealant liberally under the head of the bolt and also under the washer on the inside and installed all the bolts that don't need to go through the splash-well.
I also had to decide whether to replace the 2" angles that were previously used between the stringers and the transom. I'm not sure how much good they'll do but decided to put them back anyway. Instead of putting them under the stringer as they had been I installed them on top. One of the reasons the old transom rotted was that these brackets prevented water from running along the back down to the drain hole. Putting them on top of the stringer leaves that space open and the water should now drain properly. I used some relatively big-assed 1/4"x3/8" pop rivets to attach the brackets to the stringer and some #10x1" brass screws from bracket to transom. Again with the 3M 5200 into the screw holes. Finally a last coat of bed liner over the bolts and brackets and this part of the transom installation is done.
Next I have to do some interior finishing at the rear before I can put the splash-well back in. This will be some paint and more floatation foam. This would also be the time to make whatever frame will hold the gas cans as it will be much easier before the splash-well is in the way.
I wonder if anyone has ever kept track of all the costs of rebuilding their boat? Yesterday was a prime example of how fast things add up. Went to get 12 brass screws - $0.50@. Went to get a can of spray bed liner $12.00 +or-. Two days before all the SS nuts/bolts/washers were around $42. It's amazing how much the little things cost. You think of the major costs of the project, a couple pieces of plywood, some carpet or aluminum framing parts but it's all the miscellaneous stuff where the real costs can add up. I've got so much into this thing and still have a long way to go.
I had to do things a little out of order. Once I replace the splash-well I won't have easy access to the area under it so I needed to some things on the transom first. Also, some of the rivets go through the splash-well so I had to do a partial installation and then will finish it once I've got the splash-well ready to go.
The transom wasn't an exact fit and there was a gap all around the edges between it and the hull. I wanted to fill that to make a solid connection and to eliminate areas where water can collect. In order to do so I had to get the transom in place and keep it there until I was ready for the rivets. I decided to use waterproof construction adhesive and glue the transom in place. I put a heavy bead on the inside corner where the transom and hull meet. I also put in a 2" strip of marine epoxy along the top of the transom that would glue it to the aluminum and help keep water from creeping in from the top. Whether this proves to be a good idea remains to be seen. The aluminum of the hull is much more subject to expansion and contraction than the wood of the transom and that may crack the aluminum free from the wood. I don't know what happened to my pics of this step. They seem to have disappeared. Anyway, I clamped along the top of the transom and drove wedges between the bottom inside and the stringers to hold it in place until the glues had cured. I left a trough approximately 3/8" deep on the inside edge to be able to finish the joint once the glues cured. To control the mess I taped off the bottom and sides of the boat and used a marine epoxy putty to fill the gap minus where the mahogany is. Because the mahogany will be visible I just used an exterior caulk that color matched the mahogany.
Next I taped off and painted the bottom of the transom with the bed liner. The joint between boat and transom is pretty well sealed now.
At this point I had to decide about the rivets and I decided not to use them. I was pretty horrified by my practice attempts and didn't want to go public with my bad work and I was concerned that the hammering of the air hammer would shake loose the joint I had so carefully tried to create between the transom and hull. So, after having bought the whole riveting setup I went out for SS bolts. I used 1/4-20 SS carriage bolts with SS washers and SS stop nuts. I used 3M 5200 sealant liberally under the head of the bolt and also under the washer on the inside and installed all the bolts that don't need to go through the splash-well.
I also had to decide whether to replace the 2" angles that were previously used between the stringers and the transom. I'm not sure how much good they'll do but decided to put them back anyway. Instead of putting them under the stringer as they had been I installed them on top. One of the reasons the old transom rotted was that these brackets prevented water from running along the back down to the drain hole. Putting them on top of the stringer leaves that space open and the water should now drain properly. I used some relatively big-assed 1/4"x3/8" pop rivets to attach the brackets to the stringer and some #10x1" brass screws from bracket to transom. Again with the 3M 5200 into the screw holes. Finally a last coat of bed liner over the bolts and brackets and this part of the transom installation is done.
Next I have to do some interior finishing at the rear before I can put the splash-well back in. This will be some paint and more floatation foam. This would also be the time to make whatever frame will hold the gas cans as it will be much easier before the splash-well is in the way.
I wonder if anyone has ever kept track of all the costs of rebuilding their boat? Yesterday was a prime example of how fast things add up. Went to get 12 brass screws - $0.50@. Went to get a can of spray bed liner $12.00 +or-. Two days before all the SS nuts/bolts/washers were around $42. It's amazing how much the little things cost. You think of the major costs of the project, a couple pieces of plywood, some carpet or aluminum framing parts but it's all the miscellaneous stuff where the real costs can add up. I've got so much into this thing and still have a long way to go.
Kismet
Well-known member
Yes. I believe unless someone gives a free boat/trailer AND money, I couldn't do even my crude rehabs on the old fishing hulls I've worked on, and only lose a LITTLE money.
Last project was as bare-bones as I could make it, and discounting the hours of labor, I was quite proud to only lose $75 on the completed project.
btw, no one has given free anythings. :roll:
You are doing masterful work and creating a museum quality rehab. Funding should not be a consideration.
(Just keep telling yourself that...sort of like self-hypnosis)
Ail
Well-known member
I started to keep track until the number got high enough to make me physically ill. #-o
I know it would cost me much less next time since there would be less mistakes and extra product left over from this rebuild.
I know it would cost me much less next time since there would be less mistakes and extra product left over from this rebuild.
Y_J
Well-known member
LOL.. Then there's the ones where you have to buy the tools to do it with on top of all the materials. I've now got more $$$ into the tools and tool accessories than I paid for the boat and motor. UGGGGG. I started right out the gate by keeping all the receipts but now I"m afraid to add them all up. And I've hardly even began. Still working on getting the old paint off and the cracks welded. The last few days though my garden project has gotten in the way of the boat project. Have to get four more beds rototilled and cleared for the fall plantings and time is running out. I think tomorrow I'll work on the boat just so I can feel like I've done something
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