cajuncook1
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Nice clean motor 
. Will be able to review things this evening or tonight when I am off.
. Will be able to review things this evening or tonight when I am off.
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cajuncook1
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Well, on the bright side you have started and run her!! Going to break your questions down and give some thoughts or suggestions.
*** Before you try to adjust your carburetor and adjust running. Replace the cylinder head and check compression. Please clean the mating surfaces well and use a new cylinder head gasket. No need to add permatex or whatever sealant it will be fine just as is.
Your manual will have the procedure how to clean your cylinder head mating surface and checking for true flatness. Section 5 page 9. This is very important for a good seal.
Look in section 5 page 13 and look at diagram 5-33 for your cylinder head screws torque pattern. Your torque value will be 96 to 112 inch pounds. Please note I said inch pounds.
First round of torque use 1/2 torque value and follow the pattern, the second torque pass use 100% of the torque value and follow the torque pattern. After you run the motor for a while and she is good a warmed up, the then re-torque a third at 100% torque value following the torque pattern.
You may have to remove the thermostat cover check the thermostat, to see if it is good. If the gasket is damage, will have to replace the gasket so it does not leak....(I know more supplies...sorry).
You can test your thermostat in a pot of hot water. Place the water temp at about 160 degree F and place the thermostat in the pot and in a minute or so you should see the thermostat open. 8)
Running with the choke out.
** Usually when someone states that the motor is only running with the choke out, it usually means a lean condition carburetor wise. (Not enough fuel get to the motor and pulling the choke out creates a richer fuel delivery.
** Please make sure you have fresh fuel oil mix 50:1. Old gas mixtures of greater than 3 or 4 month can accumulate water if is no stabilizer in it.
-- Did you prime up your fuel system by pumping the fuel bulb until it was somewhat firm?
-- Is the fuel hose connected to the tank with bulb connected closest to tank. There should be a little arrow pointing out the direction of the fuel flow to the motor. (Make sure the fuel tank vent cap is open)
-- You may have to have keep the choke out for a little bit and then push it in when it is warmed up. (Does it kill when you push in the choke or just run a bit rough?? If it runs rough and you pump the fuel bulb and it perks up you make have a fuel pump issue)
Your initial carburetor settings:
-- Make sure you turn your slow idle needle in (clock wise) completely and gently seat. Then turn it out (counter clockwise 1 1/2 turns out) Take a dab of paint or whatever and mark the knob end of slow idle needle, so it can help better determine if your turned out 1 1/2 turns. Once you have the motor warmed up and choke pushed in. Try to turn the tiller throttle to lowest position to keep the motor running. Start to turn the slow idle needle in 1/8 to 1/4 increments clock wise (wait about 10 to 15 sec in between turns to allow time for the motor to react). The motor should start to rev up as you adjust the slow idle needle. You then lower the tiller setting to a slower setting and continue turning in (clockwise) the slow idle needle until you get a lean sneeze condition (like a misfire or missing jerk). You then turn it out about 1/4 out (counter clockwise). This should be the smoothest running condition at this setting and you should not have mess with it unless you have rebuilt your carb or another cleaning.
**** Because of the low profile of this motor, it sits low in a barrel and it prone to inhale its own exhaust and runs rough and makes difficult to adjust idle in the barrel. To help with this place a fan blowing on the motor to prevent the accumulation of exhaust gases. This is not an issue at the lake because the motor is in the open and exhaust will flow away and prevent recirculation. Also you will be moving along as well. You will make your final slow idle adjustment at the lake under load with the motor in forward gear to get your smoothest slow idle condition.
-- If you are still have issues with fuel delivery and still have to keep the choke out, you may have to
1 Revisit your carburetor and re-clean it. ( Sometimes there is something that was missed)
2 Evaluate your fuel hose and bulb system too make sure it does not have cracks or compromised to allow air to enter the system and displace fuel and cause a lean condition. This includes the internal fuel hoses in the motor as well.
3. Evaluate your fuel pump.
Your motor not pumping water.
-- 1st make sure you have that lower unit in a barrel or can that can allow you to raise the water level up at least half way up the mid section and at least 6 inches over the section where the water pump housing is located.
The water will come out as a mixture of exhaust gases and thick spray out of the back where the exhaust relief port is located. That is your water indicator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPwfWgNRo_M&feature=related
-- When you replaced your impeller, did you make sure the impeller pin or key was in place. If not then there may not be anything to drive the impeller to turn along with the drive shaft. (We have all done that...lol)
-- When you lined up the water tube and the water pump housing gromit it could have come out or misaligned while trying to adjust get the lower units and the exhaust housing to mate up. So either the water tube is not in the water pump housing gromit and not sending water up to the head or the water tube could have push down on the water pump housing gromit and cause it to distort the gromit. This will cause an obstruction. Lube with rubber gromit with a little oil allow it slide in easy. Pay close attention when lining up the lower and mating the two halves, so that you notice the water tube easily slides in the gromit.
-- There is a water tube gromit located at the base of the motor where it connects to the exhaust housing. If that gromit has become damage or distorted or the previous owner accident pulled down the water tube and tried to shove it back up and it did not communicate well then you would have a obstruction. (The only way to resolve that issue is to remove the outer motor housing and remove the power head from the exhausting house base to evaluate the tube and gromit connection or lack of. (This would take a good afternoon and a 6 pack of beer....but I've done it before....lol :LOL2: And lots of pictures.)
-- When you remove your cylinder head cover, this would be perfect time to evaluate your water jackets and passages to make sure they are not filled or obstructed with sand, silt, salt or junk to prevent water flow and prevent good water circulation and cooling. Please protect the inside cylinder wall and chambers so sand, grit or what does not get in there to later cause damage/scoring.)
Here is a you tube video of a person using a drill to turn the drive shaft and test to see if the water pump is pump water out the gromet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIt1HTL096w
(Make sure the motor is in neural and protect the end of the drive shaft with some like rubber than attach the drill connect or ratchet nut and turn it.) It should shoot it up good. This will rule out your water pump and allow to concentrate on possible obstruction mentioned above.
I will post addendums if I think of something later on.
I hope this helps you along.
*** Before you try to adjust your carburetor and adjust running. Replace the cylinder head and check compression. Please clean the mating surfaces well and use a new cylinder head gasket. No need to add permatex or whatever sealant it will be fine just as is.
Your manual will have the procedure how to clean your cylinder head mating surface and checking for true flatness. Section 5 page 9. This is very important for a good seal.
Look in section 5 page 13 and look at diagram 5-33 for your cylinder head screws torque pattern. Your torque value will be 96 to 112 inch pounds. Please note I said inch pounds.
First round of torque use 1/2 torque value and follow the pattern, the second torque pass use 100% of the torque value and follow the torque pattern. After you run the motor for a while and she is good a warmed up, the then re-torque a third at 100% torque value following the torque pattern.
You may have to remove the thermostat cover check the thermostat, to see if it is good. If the gasket is damage, will have to replace the gasket so it does not leak....(I know more supplies...sorry).
You can test your thermostat in a pot of hot water. Place the water temp at about 160 degree F and place the thermostat in the pot and in a minute or so you should see the thermostat open. 8)
Running with the choke out.
** Usually when someone states that the motor is only running with the choke out, it usually means a lean condition carburetor wise. (Not enough fuel get to the motor and pulling the choke out creates a richer fuel delivery.
** Please make sure you have fresh fuel oil mix 50:1. Old gas mixtures of greater than 3 or 4 month can accumulate water if is no stabilizer in it.
-- Did you prime up your fuel system by pumping the fuel bulb until it was somewhat firm?
-- Is the fuel hose connected to the tank with bulb connected closest to tank. There should be a little arrow pointing out the direction of the fuel flow to the motor. (Make sure the fuel tank vent cap is open)
-- You may have to have keep the choke out for a little bit and then push it in when it is warmed up. (Does it kill when you push in the choke or just run a bit rough?? If it runs rough and you pump the fuel bulb and it perks up you make have a fuel pump issue)
Your initial carburetor settings:
-- Make sure you turn your slow idle needle in (clock wise) completely and gently seat. Then turn it out (counter clockwise 1 1/2 turns out) Take a dab of paint or whatever and mark the knob end of slow idle needle, so it can help better determine if your turned out 1 1/2 turns. Once you have the motor warmed up and choke pushed in. Try to turn the tiller throttle to lowest position to keep the motor running. Start to turn the slow idle needle in 1/8 to 1/4 increments clock wise (wait about 10 to 15 sec in between turns to allow time for the motor to react). The motor should start to rev up as you adjust the slow idle needle. You then lower the tiller setting to a slower setting and continue turning in (clockwise) the slow idle needle until you get a lean sneeze condition (like a misfire or missing jerk). You then turn it out about 1/4 out (counter clockwise). This should be the smoothest running condition at this setting and you should not have mess with it unless you have rebuilt your carb or another cleaning.
**** Because of the low profile of this motor, it sits low in a barrel and it prone to inhale its own exhaust and runs rough and makes difficult to adjust idle in the barrel. To help with this place a fan blowing on the motor to prevent the accumulation of exhaust gases. This is not an issue at the lake because the motor is in the open and exhaust will flow away and prevent recirculation. Also you will be moving along as well. You will make your final slow idle adjustment at the lake under load with the motor in forward gear to get your smoothest slow idle condition.
-- If you are still have issues with fuel delivery and still have to keep the choke out, you may have to
1 Revisit your carburetor and re-clean it. ( Sometimes there is something that was missed)
2 Evaluate your fuel hose and bulb system too make sure it does not have cracks or compromised to allow air to enter the system and displace fuel and cause a lean condition. This includes the internal fuel hoses in the motor as well.
3. Evaluate your fuel pump.
Your motor not pumping water.
-- 1st make sure you have that lower unit in a barrel or can that can allow you to raise the water level up at least half way up the mid section and at least 6 inches over the section where the water pump housing is located.
The water will come out as a mixture of exhaust gases and thick spray out of the back where the exhaust relief port is located. That is your water indicator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPwfWgNRo_M&feature=related
-- When you replaced your impeller, did you make sure the impeller pin or key was in place. If not then there may not be anything to drive the impeller to turn along with the drive shaft. (We have all done that...lol)
-- When you lined up the water tube and the water pump housing gromit it could have come out or misaligned while trying to adjust get the lower units and the exhaust housing to mate up. So either the water tube is not in the water pump housing gromit and not sending water up to the head or the water tube could have push down on the water pump housing gromit and cause it to distort the gromit. This will cause an obstruction. Lube with rubber gromit with a little oil allow it slide in easy. Pay close attention when lining up the lower and mating the two halves, so that you notice the water tube easily slides in the gromit.
-- There is a water tube gromit located at the base of the motor where it connects to the exhaust housing. If that gromit has become damage or distorted or the previous owner accident pulled down the water tube and tried to shove it back up and it did not communicate well then you would have a obstruction. (The only way to resolve that issue is to remove the outer motor housing and remove the power head from the exhausting house base to evaluate the tube and gromit connection or lack of. (This would take a good afternoon and a 6 pack of beer....but I've done it before....lol :LOL2: And lots of pictures.)
-- When you remove your cylinder head cover, this would be perfect time to evaluate your water jackets and passages to make sure they are not filled or obstructed with sand, silt, salt or junk to prevent water flow and prevent good water circulation and cooling. Please protect the inside cylinder wall and chambers so sand, grit or what does not get in there to later cause damage/scoring.)
Here is a you tube video of a person using a drill to turn the drive shaft and test to see if the water pump is pump water out the gromet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIt1HTL096w
(Make sure the motor is in neural and protect the end of the drive shaft with some like rubber than attach the drill connect or ratchet nut and turn it.) It should shoot it up good. This will rule out your water pump and allow to concentrate on possible obstruction mentioned above.
I will post addendums if I think of something later on.
I hope this helps you along.
cajuncook1
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ENIRB said:
Your tank does not need to be pressurized. All you have to do is make sure that the tank is sound and has the ability to be vented.
When you first connect the fuel line to the motor and tank, you squeeze the fuel bulb to pump fuel to the fuel pump and to the carburetor bowl. The fuel bulb will be a little firm and will soften some when the motor is running.
When you try to start the motor or the motor is running, the fuel pump is getting alternating negative and positive pulses from the crankcase that cause fuel pump to siphon fuel from the tank and propel fuel to the carburetor bowl.
You can change you tank or fuel line if you think they are old and compromised. Make sure if you buy new fuel lines they are ethanol resistant. You can also change the fuel lines with in the motor to ethanol resistant lines when you get her up and running. You can purchase them at any auto parts store...they are cheap and sold by the foot. Make sure they don't sell you the vacuum hoses.
Originally when the fuel lines were made, ethanol was not an issue. Now ethanol causes the inside of the old fuel hoses to break down and gum and occlude the carburetors and fuel systems. Same thing applies to the original fuel pumps. The ethanol tears them up. The aftermarket or new fuel pumps are made to withstand the ethanol in gas.
So, if you can try to find a station that sells non ethanol fuel.....there are few still around.
Any hoo, I have given you so much to think about, I don't want add more the pile. :lol:
I'm going to fill up a trash can tomorrow and give that a shot.
I'll also double check the fuel tank to see if it was open or closed vent (anxious me forgot).
The fuel hose is new Attwood so resistant to ethenol, but the tank itself is old.
Fuel lines on the motor seemed fine when I was disconnecting them and moving them around while working on the carb. I'll replace probably as a last ditch effort.
Additionally, I will replace the fuel, and remix - that fuel is only 3 months old, but better safe than sorry.
I did NOT touch the impeller yet, I wanted to see if it was working first.
I just ordered it because I was paying shipping anyways.
I'm going to contact my local NAPA store tomorrow to see if they can get me the head gasket in for comparable price - to try to skip the shipping charge (10$).
Weather is starting to change here already, so I think if it isn't fixed in the next few weeks it isn't going to see water until next spring.
So tomorrow I'll troubleshoot more, and probably shore fish, all with the blisters from pulling the **** out of the rope today...
I have a feeling it's maybe just the vent on the tank... or maybe thats me hoping its something so simple! #-o
I'll also double check the fuel tank to see if it was open or closed vent (anxious me forgot).
The fuel hose is new Attwood so resistant to ethenol, but the tank itself is old.
Fuel lines on the motor seemed fine when I was disconnecting them and moving them around while working on the carb. I'll replace probably as a last ditch effort.
Additionally, I will replace the fuel, and remix - that fuel is only 3 months old, but better safe than sorry.
I did NOT touch the impeller yet, I wanted to see if it was working first.
I just ordered it because I was paying shipping anyways.
I'm going to contact my local NAPA store tomorrow to see if they can get me the head gasket in for comparable price - to try to skip the shipping charge (10$).
Weather is starting to change here already, so I think if it isn't fixed in the next few weeks it isn't going to see water until next spring.
So tomorrow I'll troubleshoot more, and probably shore fish, all with the blisters from pulling the **** out of the rope today...
I have a feeling it's maybe just the vent on the tank... or maybe thats me hoping its something so simple! #-o
cajuncook1
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If you have not inspected your old impeller. I would definitely do that before trying to run her. Old impellers can break up and send small pieces of rubber up your water tube and water passages in cylinder head and cause cooling issues.
So, please change your impeller and check to see if your water tube is in the water tube gromit at base of the pump housing. About a 30 min job. Use a little oil to lubricate the impeller for ease of insertion. See your manual for the process, it is not bad.
So, please change your impeller and check to see if your water tube is in the water tube gromit at base of the pump housing. About a 30 min job. Use a little oil to lubricate the impeller for ease of insertion. See your manual for the process, it is not bad.
cajuncook1
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Nice, you got her to run a bit and I see your new impeller is working and pumping good.
Making progress!!!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D>
Making progress!!!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D>
Yeah, the video was taken w/ my wife's Thunderbolt, or it would have been longer.
Impeller works great, pumping alot of water now!
The pull start handle is deteriorating, so I'll pick up a new one of those as well.
So:
Impeller works great, pumping alot of water now!
The pull start handle is deteriorating, so I'll pick up a new one of those as well.
So:
- Replace cylinder head
Replace spark plugs
Replace Rope Start Handle
Replace Fuel Tank
cajuncook1
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Great job on the impeller replacement. Champion J4C or J6C (JC6 if you are going to do alot of trolling with the motor) spark plugs are fine for your motor. Hope things go well with the cylinder head!
Just to give you a heads up, I'm going to be away from the computer a for about four days. I'll check in Tuesday or Wednesday.
You've done an awesome job so far!!!
Just to give you a heads up, I'm going to be away from the computer a for about four days. I'll check in Tuesday or Wednesday.
You've done an awesome job so far!!!
cajuncook1
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Hey ENIRB,
How are things going? Were you able to replace the cylinder head?
How are things going? Were you able to replace the cylinder head?
cajuncook1
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ENIRB said:cajuncook1 said:
Still waiting for it to arrive...
Email or call the seller and see if he obtained a tracking number for the part. That way you have an idea when it will arrive. Sorry about the wait, I'm anxious for ya too!
SVOMike86
Well-known member
Its a shame more people don't know about flat rate boxes. I'm sure a head would fit in the larger box...
Received the cylinder head in the mail.
Have a busy week or 2 so will update again when I have time to install.
Question though,
It appears it has the thermostat installed, should i remove and install the one on the motor already - since I know it works? or just use the one already on the replacement head?
Have a busy week or 2 so will update again when I have time to install.
Question though,
It appears it has the thermostat installed, should i remove and install the one on the motor already - since I know it works? or just use the one already on the replacement head?
jasper60103
Well-known member
ENIRB said:
I would go ahead and replace it while its convenient and having peace of mind.
cajuncook1
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Keep the existing thermostat in the replacement cylinder head. After running the motor and there are no signs of overheating, then you are in good shape. Also, you will have a spare thermostat and will not have replace the thermostat cover gasket. High percentage of the time, if the thermostat is going to fail, it is going to fail in the open position. So, you make the call if you want change it right off the bat.
When the motor is running, the water will feel cool for a little bit, then you will feel warm/very warm water for a little bit, then it will go back to cool again. It will do this on and off.
The reason you feel the cool water at first is because the head temp is not warm enough to cause the thermostat to open. When the head temp gets warm enough the thermostat will open and allow water to circulate around the water jackets to cool the power head down. When the temp drops back down the thermostat will close until the temperature of the power head causes the thermostat to open again. If you have a infra-red digital thermometer then you can see the temps start off in the low 100's to 110 then go up to the 140's or 150's degress F. Then you will see the temp head drop to 120 or 130 and then back up to 140 to 150 again. When you see the temps drop then that is when the thermostat is opening up and cooling the motor.
The thermostat helps keep the running temperature of the power head between 120 to less than 160F degrees. These are optimal running temperatures to help with more complete fuel/oil combustion and help decrease carbon and coke build up on the cylinders, rings and pistons. The older motors without thermostats had water constantly circulating around the water jackets and the power head would stay cooler and thus more carbon and coke build up.
Looking forward to your next update. Shoot me a PM if you posted and its been a day or so and I have not replied.
When the motor is running, the water will feel cool for a little bit, then you will feel warm/very warm water for a little bit, then it will go back to cool again. It will do this on and off.
The reason you feel the cool water at first is because the head temp is not warm enough to cause the thermostat to open. When the head temp gets warm enough the thermostat will open and allow water to circulate around the water jackets to cool the power head down. When the temp drops back down the thermostat will close until the temperature of the power head causes the thermostat to open again. If you have a infra-red digital thermometer then you can see the temps start off in the low 100's to 110 then go up to the 140's or 150's degress F. Then you will see the temp head drop to 120 or 130 and then back up to 140 to 150 again. When you see the temps drop then that is when the thermostat is opening up and cooling the motor.
The thermostat helps keep the running temperature of the power head between 120 to less than 160F degrees. These are optimal running temperatures to help with more complete fuel/oil combustion and help decrease carbon and coke build up on the cylinders, rings and pistons. The older motors without thermostats had water constantly circulating around the water jackets and the power head would stay cooler and thus more carbon and coke build up.
Looking forward to your next update. Shoot me a PM if you posted and its been a day or so and I have not replied.
MrSimon
Well-known member
Yes, I know this is an old thread ...... but I want to know what happened!!!!
This was like reading a good book, getting to the end, and finding the last chapter had been ripped out.
This was like reading a good book, getting to the end, and finding the last chapter had been ripped out.
