Four stroke 25 vs old 2 stroke

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Weldorthemagnificent

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Hi. My current rig is a Naden 16 (similar to a Lund ssv16) with a 1983 Johnson 35. The 35 pushes the boat well, even loaded with 3 guys and camping gear. The ole 35 is getting long in the tooth and it's pull start only...I'm getting long in the tooth too, lol. Anyway I've been around some friends boats with more modern 4 strokes and I'm thinking of upgrading. Looking at the used market there are 2 or 3 25hp motors for every 30 for sale. So I'm wondering how big or small a difference it would make. My '83 is rated at the powerhead so it's really a 30 and I'm sure after 37 years, it's a little tired. Has anyone made this switch or is running a 25 4stroke on a similar boat?

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Well, OBs can rate +/- 10% of the HP label so your 35 could have output from 31.5 to 38.5hp. Rated at the crankshaft, losses were never as much as reported, most believing a 7% loss, so if your 35 was a 35, she was likely over 30, probably closer to 32 at the propshaft.

If running E10 fuel, besides being 'tired', ethanol fuel is ~90% as efficient as the old gas fuels so you lost another 10%.

Adding to that, there's no way/no how that 4-stroke 25hp or any 30hp is going to replace your 2-stroke 35 for torque. From my experience w/ smaller to mid-range 4-strokes ... you'd need a 40hp to duplicate your current performance!
 
Its still a good motor. Needs an impeller, it stopped peeing at idle last trip out. Pees fine just a bit higher than idle, I have one on order. The new motors sure are smooth and quiet though...

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I put a 4 stroke on the back of an older tiller steer modV boat. Because of the extra weight it made the back of the boat sit too low in the water. Didn't have enough freeboard. Took the 4 stroke off and went back to a 2 stroke. Uses more fuel, but it's lighter, and a WHOLE LOT quicker. Plus, 2 strokes have fewer moving parts than a 4 stroke.
 
Weldorthemagnificent said:
Its still a good motor. Needs an impeller, it stopped peeing at idle last trip out. Pees fine just a bit higher than idle, I have one on order. The new motors sure are smooth and quiet though...

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Go through it and check compression and whatnot.

The new motors are smooth, quiet and 30% heavier. :wink:

Im keeping my 2smokes as long as possible. Im buying parts motors for $100 and turning them into runners for cheap.

35yrs from now this will not be possible with the 4 strokes, they will go to the junk heap.
 
I put a new water pump in it and it gave it a decarbonizing. Worked great, we took it on a 4 day fishing trip. Trolling, stops and starts, lots of running at speed. Even started easier. As much as I'm horny for an electric start, quiet, straight gas, charge your battery when running motor, I can't justify it. I'm going to keep this one for the foreseeable future. It's now in its winter resting place in the garage.

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Weldorthemagnificent said:
I put a new water pump in it and it gave it a decarbonizing. Worked great, we took it on a 4 day fishing trip. Trolling, stops and starts, lots of running at speed. Even started easier. As much as I'm horny for an electric start, quiet, straight gas, charge your battery when running motor, I can't justify it. I'm going to keep this one for the foreseeable future. It's now in its winter resting place in the garage.

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I bet you could find a junk remote 35 for practically nothing, and swap the electric start bits onto yours.

I converted a 9.8 Merc for $150, it was not difficult at all. Some of those OMCs are more challenging because of how the recoil is setup, the bracketry is different and you cannot retain the recoil with electric start.
 
yamaha 25hp is 4 lb heavier than the johnson 35

4 lb wont even be noticed

With your 35 being close to 30 years old, I would imagine it's probably getting a little bit weak by now

the arguement is that there are fewer parts in a 2 stroke. There are fewer parts INSIDE the engine; once you figure in the rest of the outboard, they are mostly the same until you consider ETEC's 25hp. It has far more parts than a 25hp 4 stroke. It is also heavier and more expensive. More moving parts doesn't mean it's bad. The argument here is just crazy

if you were local I'd let you run my boat and see if you like the motor. Everyone who's run it has fallen in love. Bet I've sold 10 motors from letting folks run mine

you see a lot of 25hp motors for sale because they are probably the most common horsepower outboard out there, especially once you get inland. Here, they are king of the water. They'll go everywhere in this state except for some of the really skinny waters, which are mostly kayak country anyway. Tons of old 2 strokes on the market; rare to see a 25hp 4 stroke and when you do they are gone quickly. I sold my old yamaha (2000 model F25) at the water, by a guy who was looking to buy a 4 stroke. he ran my boat and made me an offer at the ramp which I couldn't refuse. Even gave him my crappie so I didn't have to clean them. Call me lazy I guess

only guys who prefer 2 stroke are those who haven't spent any time in a 4 stroke powered boat. Trust me, I was one, even the first few times I ran a 4 stroke I was still skeptical then I bought one and used it for a while. Amazes me every time I run it

recently picked up a 20hp yamaha for my dad's boat and he's absolutely in love with it. He'll dunk it in the lake and just go riding around without a rod and reel just to enjoy being on the water. It's a lot easier to enjoy water time if you aren't' gagging on your own exhaust smoke or yanking the recoil starter on a cold morning or having to run around town looking for 2 stroke oil so you can fill the fuel tank up or fiddling around with the choke to keep a cold motor running or wondering if you put enough oil in the gas or too much. Those are real concerns and ones that I have personally dealt with for many years. Now, he dunks the boat, pushes the button and it's running perfect in about 2 seconds with no throttle input needed (prime start, no choke). Kick it into gear and off he goes, usually just idling around at 800 rpm idle speed, which is about 0.8mph depending on the wind.
 
turbotodd said:
Call me lazy I guess

It's a lot easier to enjoy water time if you aren't' gagging on your own exhaust smoke or yanking the recoil starter on a cold morning or having to run around town looking for 2 stroke oil so you can fill the fuel tank up or fiddling around with the choke to keep a cold motor running or wondering if you put enough oil in the gas or too much. Those are real concerns and ones that I have personally dealt with for many years.


...those are why i like my 2smoke....a 4stroke is like making love to a blow up doll..imho..
 
turbotodd said:
yamaha 25hp is 4 lb heavier than the johnson 35

4 lb wont even be noticed

With your 35 being close to 30 years old, I would imagine it's probably getting a little bit weak by now

the arguement is that there are fewer parts in a 2 stroke. There are fewer parts INSIDE the engine; once you figure in the rest of the outboard, they are mostly the same until you consider ETEC's 25hp. It has far more parts than a 25hp 4 stroke. It is also heavier and more expensive. More moving parts doesn't mean it's bad. The argument here is just crazy

if you were local I'd let you run my boat and see if you like the motor. Everyone who's run it has fallen in love. Bet I've sold 10 motors from letting folks run mine

you see a lot of 25hp motors for sale because they are probably the most common horsepower outboard out there, especially once you get inland. Here, they are king of the water. They'll go everywhere in this state except for some of the really skinny waters, which are mostly kayak country anyway. Tons of old 2 strokes on the market; rare to see a 25hp 4 stroke and when you do they are gone quickly. I sold my old yamaha (2000 model F25) at the water, by a guy who was looking to buy a 4 stroke. he ran my boat and made me an offer at the ramp which I couldn't refuse. Even gave him my crappie so I didn't have to clean them. Call me lazy I guess

only guys who prefer 2 stroke are those who haven't spent any time in a 4 stroke powered boat. Trust me, I was one, even the first few times I ran a 4 stroke I was still skeptical then I bought one and used it for a while. Amazes me every time I run it

recently picked up a 20hp yamaha for my dad's boat and he's absolutely in love with it. He'll dunk it in the lake and just go riding around without a rod and reel just to enjoy being on the water. It's a lot easier to enjoy water time if you aren't' gagging on your own exhaust smoke or yanking the recoil starter on a cold morning or having to run around town looking for 2 stroke oil so you can fill the fuel tank up or fiddling around with the choke to keep a cold motor running or wondering if you put enough oil in the gas or too much. Those are real concerns and ones that I have personally dealt with for many years. Now, he dunks the boat, pushes the button and it's running perfect in about 2 seconds with no throttle input needed (prime start, no choke). Kick it into gear and off he goes, usually just idling around at 800 rpm idle speed, which is about 0.8mph depending on the wind.
Those Yamaha motors are sweet. My friend's dad ran one at full throttle day after day from Minneapolis to Georgia. Old goat in a tin boat is his book.
I've been fishing big water with a friend who runs a 2000 Yamaha 115. Runs flawlessly from cold to hot. We troll all day. That's what got me thinking about upgrading. Most motors are the same weight for the 25 and 30 (except the new Yamaha). I'd go 30 too but you definitely see more 25's for sale used. I see a few Honda's come up for sale every so often. Don't know much about them but I hear they're reliable. I'm going to run my old 35 next year too unless it gives me trouble.

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Sinkingfast said:
turbotodd said:
Call me lazy I guess

It's a lot easier to enjoy water time if you aren't' gagging on your own exhaust smoke or yanking the recoil starter on a cold morning or having to run around town looking for 2 stroke oil so you can fill the fuel tank up or fiddling around with the choke to keep a cold motor running or wondering if you put enough oil in the gas or too much. Those are real concerns and ones that I have personally dealt with for many years.


...those are why i like my 2smoke....a 4stroke is like making love to a blow up doll..imho..
I think it boils down to intelligence and familiarity with two strokes.

If you’re choking on fumes you may have your motor on the wrong end of the boat or you may just be a bit paranoid due to being able to see the exhaust because let’s face it, four strokes emit exhaust too.

As to the “chore” of “running around town looking for oil”, did you remember to get gas before hitting the ramp? Did you put your gear in the boat? Did you remember to pack your lunch?

These are all simple things that anyone who takes pride in themselves could and do easily master.

Like what you like, but let’s keep the fantasy angle in our heads.
 
I'm not convinced that you will see 60 year old 4 strokes, like you do 2 strokes.

Those little powerheads are full of polymer and lightweight materials. Get them hot once and they'll never be right again. Any failure in the engine almost always results in replacing the powerhead assembly, or scrapping the motor for parts if cost is prohibitive.

Fuel economy is certainly a benefit, but with how most of us use our outboards, it is inconsequential. It would be different if you were running a trio of 250s 8 hours a day.
 
MrGiggles said:
I'm not convinced that you will see 60 year old 4 strokes, like you do 2 strokes.

Those little powerheads are full of polymer and lightweight materials. Get them hot once and they'll never be right again. Any failure in the engine almost always results in replacing the powerhead assembly, or scrapping the motor for parts if cost is prohibitive.

Fuel economy is certainly a benefit, but with how most of us use our outboards, it is inconsequential. It would be different if you were running a trio of 250s 8 hours a day.

Theres that, but the thing a lot of people dont realize is how high strung the 4 strokes are.

The older 2 smokes are relatively under powered for their displacement and lazy. This affords them an extremely long life even going wide open for 80% of their use.

The 4 stroke motors cant be build this way or they would weigh double what a comparable 2 stroke weighs and be comically large.

As far as storing one in a basement and pulling it out after 20yrs, putting fuel in and having it start, not gonna happen. You will wind up with stuck valves and other issues.
 
MrGiggles said:
I'm not convinced that you will see 60 year old 4 strokes, like you do 2 strokes.

Those little powerheads are full of polymer and lightweight materials. Get them hot once and they'll never be right again. Any failure in the engine almost always results in replacing the powerhead assembly, or scrapping the motor for parts if cost is prohibitive.

Fuel economy is certainly a benefit, but with how most of us use our outboards, it is inconsequential. It would be different if you were running a trio of 250s 8 hours a day.

Well, my f2.5 yami I bought 2006 new for my 18' canoe would vibrate the wifes bottom. Was cute in the beginning but I ended up taking out the seat and using a pvc lawn chair.

Ran the motor usually at 5600 rpm an hour each day, 6 days a week, april-nov, for 8 years. The motor now blows oil out the crankcase vent...bad.


The Martin 40 that I replaced with that f2.5 had a crap load more hours on it and still runs great the new owner says.
 
I still see 20+ year old 4 strokes on the water, so that arguement is moot. Seen a pontoon recently with a first gen yamaha F9.9. I think late 1980's.

same deal with an old 2 stroke. When it overheats (and a lot of them don't have overheat protection), it's junk, can't get parts for them so you throw it out and buy another. Most 4 strokes have overheat protection; limits RPM to like 2500, so you can limp back. It's there to remind you that it's hot, shut it down. Unfortunately many don't, they just keep going, "why's this thing running like poo????" Seen it on 2 stroke and 4, more often on 2 stroke stuff though and may be because there are more of them around.

4 stroke powerhead can be rebuilt, easily. 2 stroke powerhead can be rebuilt easily too, in both cases so long as the parts are available and the owner is willing to put the money into it. Did a 25ESH last year, $1400. Did an F20 earlier this year, $1280. There isn't a big price difference. Once you get into bigger stuff that changes. Dual overhead cam, etc. But compare that to a FICHT motor, or a HPDI, and the costs are roughly the same. You can get reman powerheads for 2 stroke and 4 stroke both (aftermarket) and OE supplies new powerheads for both as well. I haven't priced them. Not that it matters for anyone but those who use their stuff offshore for many hours a day, or duck hunters who haul their stuff down dirt roads for miles and miles, fills the underside of the cowl with dirt/dust and there ain't no air filter on outboards (ain't much dust on the water). That is considered unusual operation. #1 cause of powerhead failure is dirt dobbers. The little buggers build nests under the cowling and all over the engine. Owner gets his stuff out of year of storage, fires it up and takes off. Those nests break loose and get pulled into the engine. Dirt is not a good lubricant, fuel, or coolant, so the engine loses compression. Seen a few dozen of those. That is considered neglect and it don't matter if it's 2 stroke or 4, they're both gonna suffer the same fate.

the reason you see 60+ year old outboards is because outboards and boats SIT without use. Some more than others. Dad don't use his but once or twice a year now. I use mine every single weekend. My friends (retired) use theirs daily, couple hours of use a day usually. Stuff wears out with use. If there are a million motors sold and 500,000 of them get used once a year, then half of them are likely to be alive for a long time, but you don't hear about the other half that were worn out, dusted, neglected, abused, totaled, sunk, etc.
 
I’ve never had any trouble getting any parts I’ve needed.

I’ve had 20 motors come through this year with the oldest one being a 62 vintage with no parts issues whatsoever.

Looking up mercury parts sometimes gives me fits, but that is due to their SN and cataloging system.
 
Yep, I had the same decision. The wife was complaining about having to lift the motor, too loud, and shakes like a crack-*****. She went to use the boat and let the motor off tilt. I always tell her not to just drop it and, she almost went over trying to keep it from slamming against the transom. Well that was the end of that... Replaced a great running 25 hp estart Johnson with a brand new 20 hp Tohatsu with power tilt and estart. Just as important is it has a 10-amp charging system vs the 4-amp trickle from the Johnson. Whisper quiet and the queen is happy. The Johnson is going on Craigs list.
 

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